Where have all the hardcore players gone?

[Deleted]

I never made the statement that there is only one hard boss a year, that was you. I would never be as ignorant as to make faceless claims about the experience an entire community has over the course of a year that contradicts the best players in the world.

It's not really faceless. DS was released 29. November and WF Spine 17. December (Wouldve prolly been ealier without 1 week bans to best guilds).
So currently KIN Raiders have been without content for 9 months and 15 days. Might round that up to ~1 year

[Immitis]

Have you even read the post? I see lots of people saying that's there is hard content but only few people cleared it. That is EXACTLY what OP is saying, where did all the hardcore people go? Why is there so little of them now that the game is so widespread and so accessible?

My personal opinion (which could be wrong) all the original hardcore players finished high school, college, got jobs and families and now either not playing or casually raiding due to time restrains.

thats how its always been less than 1% of players even saw naxx or sunwell back in vanilla and bc LESS THAN 1% do you know how much content was added to wow in bc from launch to sunwell that wasnt a raid patch? 1 new dungeon and 1 daily quest hub (correct me if im wrong about that my memory might be a bit foggy) and considering at that time very little people did dungeons either that means the majority of subscribers back in vanilla and bc did nothing but quest and lvl

basically if you only exclusively cater to the 1% your going to make alot less money. now for that hardcore group their are heroic modes and since you guys hate nerfs so much in mists their will now be incentives to doing heroic raids either pre nerf or with nerfs turned off i the form of FoS and possibly titles. for casual raiders who are still the minority since blizzard a while back said around 2 million people did demon soul on lfr their still however more than the hardcores they have nerfs they also have to complete the raid content months and months after any hardcore has finished it. i personally dont like to raid much during the final patch and prefer to do things ive missed out on during the expac, during 4.3 i got my insane title finished every quest ingame and worked on a few achievements and got 55 reps at exalted. i only raid to help out my guild and my guild is pretty casual they are currently still on the ship fight in dragon soul normal.

in mists they are truly catering to everyone theres content for hardcores in the form of heroic raids with incentives to do pre nerf. challenge mode dungeons which nerf your item level so that nomatter what you cant outgear them, for casuals their are pet battles and farms, for rep grinders there are tons of new reps with vanity items on each, for altholics their is a new class a new race and tons of new quests and huge zones to play through. for people who like lore their is a faction called lorewalkers and archaeology has been updated to make it easier to do. for people who like world pvp their is new world bosses which upon being pulled turns everyones pvp on and thus makes them not only a raid boss but a huge incentive for world pvp against factions. for old school warcraft players chen stormstout is here.

mists has everything and that is why in my opinion even just the launch content makes it the best expac so far

[JimmyMcNulty]

It's not really faceless. DS was released 29. November and WF Spine 17. December (Wouldve prolly been ealier without 1 week bans to best guilds).
So currently KIN Raiders have been without content for 9 months and 15 days. Might round that up to ~1 year

maybe you should agree what defiens "hardcore" first before you continue this sensless argument... is hardcore the approach to raiding hours per day during progress? is hardcore the amount of time you spend online? is hardcore the difficulty of raid encounters?
vanilla required raiders to put in more hours into the game outside of raiding just to be ready for the actual raiding, while the bosses themselves were alot simpler than what we see nowadays. the trend has been shifting since TBC into simpler preparation for raiding but more complex/difficult raid encounters, but neither of these things can objectively defined as hardcore right?

[Deleted]

In fact, the only guilds who still exist that existed in vanilla are paragon and blood legion.

Paragon didn't exist in vanilla, they were formed in WotLK.

But with these nerfs and balances shouldn't it create MORE good core players and not more bad ones? An easier game should mean that it's easier for people to grasp it and excel at it.

No. Bad players will be bad regardless of what happens to the game. They are bad because of their fundamental attitude of not focusing on continuously improving their skills. Easy and simplistic content does not make bad players good, it just makes them think they are good because they have all the external signs of being good (epics, kills, DPS numbers). I saw this all the time when running recruitment for an end-game guild in Cata. There are very, very few good players left in the game, but tons of bad players who think they are good.

So Why? Why do players not care about progression anymore? Vanilla we lived breathed and shit progression, ditto BC but now all of a sudden all the core players are absent and they're replaced with this puddle of people who don't know their dicks from their assholes?

Because there is no progression anymore. Not in the sense of vanilla and TBC progression. It's just a grind to do the same stuff over and over in increasing difficulty levels with precisely zero feeling of progression. The only thing left for the high quality guilds is competition, and that alone won't keep many raiders interested.

[Frozenbeef]

Wow has ALWAYS been easy, before wow other mmo communitys made fun of wow for being focused towards newbs/noobs...

[Crashdummy]

I never said they hadn't easy bosses, I even pointed at some of them, and I specifically said in the very part you quoted that the overall difficulty is not about individual bosses.
Who are you talking to ? Because your answer seems very unrelated to what I actually wrote.

There are individual bosses that are hard and individual bosses easy in both expansions, the easy ones in current expansion are harder than the easy ones in vanilla, and the current hard ones are harder than the hard one in vanilla, i seriously think you cant be talking serious right now, vanilla raids were NOT harder, they just needed a very long previous grind to get the resist gear and the consumables and 40 people which were difficult to put together, the raids itself (outside Naxx) were a JOKE compared to today's heroic raids.

You realize that all that goes exactly against "they are better" and directly support the opposite ("game is easier") ?

Yes having more experience goes against they are better, sure... havign at their disposal and mastering several classes in alts goes against they are better, right.... Content being harder than before to kill to those people EVEN when now they have addons and balanced classes support thatt he game is easier.. sure...
You reaklly have no idea what you are talking about.

This part was also true during BC and latter Classic, nothing new in LK or Cata.

No that part was not true during classic, did you even read what you quoted?

Hard not to laugh when you say that the game never changed from progression to "everyone must win" when it's so blatantly obvious it did exactly that. We went from "each tier requires that you did the previous one", a vertical structure that is really the definition of progression, to a philosophy stating OPENLY that everyone must see the content, and tweaking and nerfing instances specifically so that the percentage of people clearing raids is maximized.
Hard to take you seriously when what you say fly so obviously in the face of what actually happened.

Hard ntt to laugh when you are implying that LFR is winning....
Attunements were taken away in TBC, not wrath or Cata, and they were taken away because it encouraged the worst attitude a wow player can have, they were blatantly stealing raiders from other raid groups because in TBC HARDCORES were too fucking LAZY to re gear and re attune new players when someone left or they needed a backup.

It's also pretty ridiculous to say that TBC was introduced as "more casual-friendly" than Vanilla, while in fact the first version was so grossly overtuned that even bleeding edge raiders were complaining about it.

40 man raids turned into 25 and 10 man raids.
Crafting significantly easier (in Vanilla you had to go so instances like Uldaman, Blacrock Depths and Scholomance to learn recipes or craft some items).
Crafting significantly more rewarding too.
5 man dungeons dropping epics.
Epics can be bough with badges.
Flying.
You could set your heartstone to shattrath and you had portals to every single capital, in vanilla you had to walk everywhere.

Either you havent played vanilla or you cant remember anything, TBC was a more casual friendly version of it, and even then when TBC was launch the qq in the forums about being too dumbed down was astonishing. I am seriously thinking you never played either vanilla or TBC.

Sending it right back at you, ZG and ZA @ 85 were pure jokes that were facerolled with disgust, so I'm not sure what game you played but it was certainly not Cata if you think they were hard in any way. The 180° from "let's keep at least a lil' bit of challenge outside HM raids" to "let's everyone faceroll everything save HM raids" happened at the 4.0.6, not after the Firelands.
And if you've memory troubles about that, you can look back at the patchnotes in february that nerfed all heroics into oblivion and reactivated the Luck of the Draw buff on top of that.

They were not jokes that were facerolled, pugs were failling all around when they were launched and some pugs were more than two horus in those instances, you are either blind or dont want to see what happens around you.

Tha change happened when they nerfed firelands. My memory doesnt fail, yours does, i know heroics were nerfed in february, but they were still not casual friendly, as ZA/ZG werent either.

You really need to think before posting, because you either cant remember a single thing about the past or you are just blatantly lying.

[sozo]

another "god mode" post i see. who cares if its hard or easy for someone , its a game! some people have lives and dont dedicate themselves to sit on a computer every second they can. its meant for enjoyment and fun. Your arrogant "im better than everyone else and everyone else is an idot" attitude is what ends up driving the fun people away. We go to other games where people play to enjoy the experience not to listen to nerds cry about how "bad" everyone but they are.

[Deleted]

6 or 7 years ago it was fine and dandy for guilds to spend weeks on a single boss to learn to kill it. Times have changed and most of the hardcores have changed with them. Christ i remember staying up till 3am in molten core for the 10th 'ONE MORE' try at raggy (we got him the following week after some nice drops from other bosses). The hardcores that had that sort of time to devote to the game 7 years ago simply dont anymore. Weve got jobs/families.

Sure the old hardcore guilds are gone but im pretty sure theres a looooooooooong list of new hardcore guilds with the next gen hardcore gamer who has that sort of free time and will probably clear the new mop raids the first week they are released then sit back and whine till the next tier.

TLDR the 'oldschool' peeps are 6 years older now and have responcibilities and cant sit for 12+ hours on a game anymore.

[Jurwi]

another "god mode" post i see. who cares if its hard or easy for someone , its a game! some people have lives and dont dedicate themselves to sit on a computer every second they can. its meant for enjoyment and fun. Your arrogant "im better than everyone else and everyone else is an idot" attitude is what ends up driving the fun people away. We go to other games where people play to enjoy the experience not to listen to nerds cry about how "bad" everyone but they are.

Some being most people.

[Crashdummy]

I think because Vanilla WoW was made for gamers, people who devote more time to video games then the rest and current WoW is made not only for gamers, but stay-at-home mums, kids and crowd who only played solitaire and moved to WoW.
That's why we see less and less hardcore gamers then before. I really can't think a person is a gamer and satisfied with picking herbs, doing dailies and going to LFR.

WoW was made for those that were not hardcore enough to stay in EQ and UO. WoW was ALWAYS a casual friendly game and in every single expansion they made the game more c asual friendly than the previous expansion was. The only breakpoint in this philosophy was the start of Cataclysm and it was a huge failure.

[probert]

Providing 25 man content equivalent gear in 10 mans, pretty much killed progression raiding for most servers for 25 man raids.

Then LFR came out. And the 10 man progression raids couldn't find people to fill in their empty slots, since people had already seen the content and it wasnt' worth the extra effort for the incremental imrpovement in gear and achievements.

And now, there's MOBAs and GW2 and Rift (which offers the exact same style of raiding, but with MORE raids and dedicated sizes). WoW isnt' the best progression group content anymore.

Its not the same as it used to be. There's more choices now; Blizzard is aiming at a more casual audience; and the old school hardcore raiders have seen it and done it...there's less incentive for them to repeat the process with each expansion.

LFR is a success if you want to have the most # of people see the most amount of content. It is a failure, if you consider steep difficulty and world firsts that take weeks/months to accomplish as the draw to your game.

[Crashdummy]

In your opinion is 1 hard boss/year enough for saying "hard content"?

Ragnaros is not the only hard boss Sinestra was hard, Spine, Ascendant Council, Choggal, Nefarian and Al'akir were hard. Not Ragnaros hard bue definitely not easy fights.

Baleroc was also hard in the way some bosses in TBC were hard (gear checks).

---------- Post added 2012-09-04 at 10:51 AM ----------

It's not really faceless. DS was released 29. November and WF Spine 17. December (Wouldve prolly been ealier without 1 week bans to best guilds).
So currently KIN Raiders have been without content for 9 months and 15 days. Might round that up to ~1 year

Yes, and Muru the guild breaker in TBC which some people call hard was killled 3 DAYS after being available. 3 DAYS, and it was called a hard boss and named guildbreaker.

[Akka]

Your addendum proved nothing, the second paragraph applies to some other guys' post, and the first paragraph is your definition of "growing up", where you say that by saying "growing up from hc raiding" means HC by itself was immature. I then replied to that, not my problem if you can't see a connection between the two posts.

You probably don't talk about the same post as I. So let me requote myself :

Oh, and to all the idiots talking about "growing up" : maybe it'll be a shock to you, but the entire world isn't a copy-paste of you. Many people were actually already adults with a work and a family when the game was released, and as such they didn't need to "grow up out of being hardcore". Try to see beyond your own navel, thanks, being "hardcore" is not about being a kid (nor it is about spending godawful amount of time or even being good) it's only about being involved and passionate.

Your post is the perfect example of what I describe : someone who thinks his case (being young, in school, having no responsability and as such having lots of time to spend in the game) is the case for everyone, and forgets that plenty of people started WoW and were "hardcore" when they already were not in school anymore, already had responsabilities and already had time restrictions. And as such, as said above, didn't quit because they "grew up", as they were already "grown up" at the start of the game.

[Deleted]

Your post is the perfect example of what I describe : someone who thinks his case (being young, in school, having no responsability and as such having lots of time to spend in the game) is the case for everyone, and forgets that plenty of people started WoW and were "hardcore" when they already were not in school anymore, already had responsabilities and already had time restrictions. And as such, as said above, didn't quit because they "grew up", as they were already "grown up" at the start of the game.

I was going to write exactly this. There seem to be many people on these boards that think that the only way to kill hard bosses is to be 20, live in your parents' basement and raid 24/7. The reality, of course, is completely different. All the time I spent raiding in WoW my guild only raided 2-3 nights per week and never extended raids. Our roster had age spread from ~16 - 50+ and we had people with families, small kids, people getting their masters degrees while raiding with us, doctors and surgeons (yeah, somehow having the responsibility of human lives on daily basis didn't mean they couldn't kill bosses with us, so don't talk to me about your "responsibilities"). Yet we managed beat many, many encounters that people on these boards seem to think could only be beaten by no-lifers raiding 24/7.

Sorry to break this to everyone, but the issue is not "having a life" or "having responsibilities". It's about being bad at the game and bad at your life. If you schedule your time wisely and spend it productively you can achieve much more than you can imagine, both in the game and IRL.

[Akka]

There are individual bosses that are hard and individual bosses easy in both expansions, the easy ones in current expansion are harder than the easy ones in vanilla, and the current hard ones are harder than the hard one in vanilla, i seriously think you cant be talking serious right now, vanilla raids were NOT harder, they just needed a very long previous grind to get the resist gear and the consumables and 40 people which were difficult to put together, the raids itself (outside Naxx) were a JOKE compared to today's heroic raids.7

Let me requote myself (it's quite annoying to constantly have to do that, but people only reading what is convenient for them and "forgetting" previous points makes it an obligation) :

I'm pretty sure that the mechanics of most of the fights have become more complex (though often more loosely tuned, notice that I say "often" and certainly not "always"), but the game as a whole as become MUCH MUCH easier. A fight can never be taken outside the general context, and just as much as the fight itself, you need to see how the rest of the game is around - for a grossly exagerated example, it's meaningless to look at the HP of a lvl 60 boss and to compare it to a lvl 80, because they were meant to be fought in two totally different context.
A less grossly exagerated example would be healing : today's healing is often AoE, often rather fast to cast and benefitting from lots of talents and synergy ; healing in MC was much more constrained, as such you can't compare at all the damage taken by the raid, even proportionnally to the health of the characters : healing everyone in the raid of 50 % of their health today is much easier and much, much faster than healing everyone of 25 % of their health in Classic.

Also, as I, again, said several times, the overall challenge of a game can not be reduced to a handful of bosses in HM. Let me quote the exact passage :

Again, you're talking about a minuscule amount of content. That some few bosses are hard to kill doesn't make the rest of the game challenging. Also, the artificial separation between HM and "normal" mode muddy the water a lot when it comes to progression - many see HM only as a very artificial and gimmicky addition.

Yes having more experience goes against they are better, sure... havign at their disposal and mastering several classes in alts goes against they are better, right.... Content being harder than before to kill to those people EVEN when now they have addons and balanced classes support thatt he game is easier.. sure...
You reaklly have no idea what you are talking about.

"more experience" is false because many of today's raiders have started in LK and Cata, and as such have no more experience than people who raided in late Vanilla. More alt simply means that leveling has become ten times easier, it doesn't make someone magically better, but it does provide guilds with lots more ressources (so game easier).
And again, I do not dispute that HM today are at least as hard as Vanilla and TBC raids, I say that the game as a whole has become much easier. I have even repeated it several times - the fact you still seem to not get it, and the fact I can answer you by requoting previous answers given, tend to indicate you probably simply don't bother to actually read and understand opposite argument, or ignore them when they don't conform to what you want ; but then this is a problem from your end, not mine.

No that part was not true during classic, did you even read what you quoted?

Yes I did - and dare I say, unlike what you seemed to have done, cf the paragraph just above.
You said that LK raiders benefitted from already established guild structures and players, experience and general strategy. I answered that it was already true in TBC and late Vanilla. TBC and late Vanilla means two years after launch and more, and YEAH two years after launch there were already structured guild and experienced raider. That you may say it's wrong is only mind-boggling - did you think people just twidled their thumbs learning nothing in Vanilla and TBC, and only started to learn from LK (and actually, I'm pretty sure I've already said this nearly word for word, scratch one more for you ignoring points made that you don't like).

40 man raids turned into 25 and 10 man raids.
Crafting significantly easier (in Vanilla you had to go so instances like Uldaman, Blacrock Depths and Scholomance to learn recipes or craft some items).
Crafting significantly more rewarding too.
5 man dungeons dropping epics.
Epics can be bough with badges.
Flying.
You could set your heartstone to shattrath and you had portals to every single capital, in vanilla you had to walk everywhere.

Either you havent played vanilla or you cant remember anything, TBC was a more casual friendly version of it, and even then when TBC was launch the qq in the forums about being too dumbed down was astonishing. I am seriously thinking you never played either vanilla or TBC.

Yes, there was much more accessible content. This I don't contest.
But the game was never more brutal as a whole than in early TBC. 5-men were so hard you often saw people getting epics first, and then attempting them (they were still challenging toward the end after having been nerfed between three and five times), raids were so punishing that even Nihilum made posts on the official forum to complain.
You constantly try to mock me for not remembering correctly, but for you to contest this well-known fact tends to make me believe you're the one that should be on the receiving end of having memory trouble - or just not being there at the time.
Maybe you should stop using this "argument" that you seem to be much more susceptible to than I...

They were not jokes that were facerolled, pugs were failling all around when they were launched and some pugs were more than two horus in those instances, you are either blind or dont want to see what happens around you.

Tha change happened when they nerfed firelands. My memory doesnt fail, yours does, i know heroics were nerfed in february, but they were still not casual friendly, as ZA/ZG werent either.

Some PuG manage to fail in even the easiest circumstances. ZG/ZA could be facerolled without the buff, and the nerfed instances even more so, if some people are bad enough to wipe even with the buff it doesn't mean they were hard, just that some people are astonishingly bad at the game.
Again, I send your stupid accusations right back at you : if you found them hard, maybe you were blind - being blind is about the only excuse for failing to clear them.

You really need to think before posting, because you either cant remember a single thing about the past or you are just blatantly lying.

Pot, meet kettle. I provide well-known facts and patchnotes with huge lists of nerfs, you just throw constantly baseless (and, may I say, idiotic) accusations of "you were not there duh !".
And considering you manage to "forget" arguments that were barely some page ahead, and I have to requote them constantly, I guess your claim of having good, non-selective memory is quite feeble.

[Tyrranis]

I realize with wow becoming so easy you can play it with your penis

Why girl gamers fall behind.

There was already a warning for this stuff in this thread, so well earned - Azshira

[strangerdanger]

They probably didn't have a whole lot going on IRL 6 years ago and now they do... shit happens.

I don't even have time to raid anymore and I used to be a pretty hardcore raider back in the BC/wrath days. People move on, and other people move in.

[Crashdummy]

Let me requote myself (it's quite annoying to constantly have to do that, but people only reading what is convenient for them and "forgetting" previous points makes it an obligation) :

I'm pretty sure that the mechanics of most of the fights have become more complex (though often more loosely tuned, notice that I say "often" and certainly not "always"), but the game as a whole as become MUCH MUCH easier. A fight can never be taken outside the general context, and just as much as the fight itself, you need to see how the rest of the game is around - for a grossly exagerated example, it's meaningless to look at the HP of a lvl 60 boss and to compare it to a lvl 80, because they were meant to be fought in two totally different context.
A less grossly exagerated example would be healing : today's healing is often AoE, often rather fast to cast and benefitting from lots of talents and synergy ; healing in MC was much more constrained, as such you can't compare at all the damage taken by the raid, even proportionnally to the health of the characters : healing everyone in the raid of 50 % of their health today is much easier and much, much faster than healing everyone of 25 % of their health in Classic.

Also, as I, again, said several times, the overall challenge of a game can not be reduced to a handful of bosses in HM. Let me quote the exact passage :

Again, you're talking about a minuscule amount of content. That some few bosses are hard to kill doesn't make the rest of the game challenging. Also, the artificial separation between HM and "normal" mode muddy the water a lot when it comes to progression - many see HM only as a very artificial and gimmicky addition.

Ok, i dont know if you are doing it on purpose or without noticing, but you make no sense.

The whole therad is speaking about hardcores and their raiding, and i am telling you that todays easy bosses are harder than vanilla easy bosses and todays hard bosses are harder than vanilla hard bosses, and you are talking about some "general context" making the game easier. Yes, as i have already said, you dont have to grind resist gear and consumables like crazy, in that aspect is easier, but the fights themselves? They are harder.
So instead of requoting irrelevant stuff, try to read better and have a little understanding of what the thread is about and what other posters are telling you so you dont have to derail the thread and requote things that have nothing to do with what i wa telling you.

About some people not co9nsidering HM as a valid comparison, well, nothing can be done about them, HM is where the challenge is nowadays, you cant compare Vanilla raids to anything that is not HM when you are trying to argue which had harder content, so those not considering HM should just avoid this discussions.

"more experience" is false because many of today's raiders have started in LK and Cata, and as such have no more experience than people who raided in late Vanilla. More alt simply means that leveling has become ten times easier, it doesn't make someone magically better, but it does provide guilds with lots more ressources (so game easier).
And again, I do not dispute that HM today are at least as hard as Vanilla and TBC raids, I say that the game as a whole has become much easier. I have even repeated it several times - the fact you still seem to not get it, and the fact I can answer you by requoting previous answers given, tend to indicate you probably simply don't bother to actually read and understand opposite argument, or ignore them when they don't conform to what you want ; but then this is a problem from your end, not mine.

More experience is not false, in vanilla no one had any experience in WoW, and even those that started in LK probably got some of the Vanilla and TBC experience shared to them, so they ahd the experience form 2 expansion PLUS the shared experience of other two. No one had that in TBC and even less in Vanilla. Again, i already explained that to you, pay atention to what other posters write please.

Yes I did - and dare I say, unlike what you seemed to have done, cf the paragraph just above.
You said that LK raiders benefitted from already established guild structures and players, experience and general strategy. I answered that it was already true in TBC and late Vanilla. TBC and late Vanilla means two years after launch and more, and YEAH two years after launch there were already structured guild and experienced raider. That you may say it's wrong is only mind-boggling - did you think people just twidled their thumbs learning nothing in Vanilla and TBC, and only started to learn from LK (and actually, I'm pretty sure I've already said this nearly word for word, scratch one more for you ignoring points made that you don't like).

I already coverred this in the previous pàragraph, no, you didnt have the same experience, seriously.

Yes, there was much more accessible content. This I don't contest.
But the game was never more brutal as a whole than in early TBC. 5-men were so hard you often saw people getting epics first, and then attempting them (they were still challenging toward the end after having been nerfed between three and five times), raids were so punishing that even Nihilum made posts on the official forum to complain.
You constantly try to mock me for not remembering correctly, but for you to contest this well-known fact tends to make me believe you're the one that should be on the receiving end of having memory trouble - or just not being there at the time.
Maybe you should stop using this "argument" that you seem to be much more susceptible to than I...

Nihilum, the same ones that later were in Ensidia and in Ulduar claimed that Yogg Saron was impossible one week before it was killed. Yes, TBC had challenge, so had it Vanilla and so had it TBC, but the GAME has always been more casual than its previous reincarnation untill the start of Cata where this changed and meant 2 millon subs loss.
EVERY SINGLE EXPANSION has had easy and hard bosses, EVERY SINGLE ONE. The hardest bosses in WoW's history have been in WotLK (LK H 25 who was NOT KILLED before nerfs, and not because he was bugged like Cthun) and Cataclysm.
So no, the challenge is still there and its even increased for those that are not constantly qqing in forums and actually play the game.
Of course, those that are not hardcore now can see an easier version of the content and earn lesser quality gear, which is what troubels the midcores that come to the forums to try to bash WotLK and cata for being made for casuals, unlike the great times of Vanilla and TBC (that were also aimed for the casual market of that time, ironically).

Some PuG manage to fail in even the easiest circumstances. ZG/ZA could be facerolled without the buff, and the nerfed instances even more so, if some people are bad enough to wipe even with the buff it doesn't mean they were hard, just that some people are astonishingly bad at the game.
Again, I send your stupid accusations right back at you : if you found them hard, maybe you were blind - being blind is about the only excuse for failing to clear them.

ZA/Zg was not facerolled without overgearing them by non top players. I dont know who you are trying to fool with that lie, but you are not fooling anyone. yes, here in the forums we are great players that always facerolled everything, i facerolled LK 25M H 0% naked when it was current, i'm that good. In the real world, people were struggling in those instances, and most PuGs failed ended up breaking in the middle at least for the first month.
So i recommend that you take off your rose tinted glasses and look at what happens in the game, yes maybe you 4 guildies in HM gear facerolled the dungeon , but that was NOT the common run.

Pot, meet kettle. I provide well-known facts and patchnotes with huge lists of nerfs, you just throw constantly baseless (and, may I say, idiotic) accusations of "you were not there duh !".
And considering you manage to "forget" arguments that were barely some page ahead, and I have to requote them constantly, I guess your claim of having good, non-selective memory is quite feeble.

You provided nothing but lies from midcores that have been repeated too many times already, and are not well-known facts. I have provided you with facts about how hard this game is for those that are really insterested in challenge instead of the midcore qqers that cry because others get gear.

So please, if you are going to answer, read and try to back up your claims with thigns others than your "well-*knon facts" that in reality are very far from being facts.

[Deleted]

There will always be more hardcore players joining in, just the old ones have moved on to other things in there lives, jobs, uni etc

[ScottsdaleHokie]

Either playing Rift, or have quit the game.