I propose this: Give the raids back to the raiders

[Anuibus]

You just compared a Ferrari with WoW so yeah. The only difference with an mmo and a SP game is that other people can see what you done, so this all makes me think you want boasting rights rather than anything else.

The difference between an MMO and a SP game is you team up with other players and work together towards a common goal.

[Grogo]

Yes, and then people gtfo, and then the game collapses and everything is in the cold. Great idea, tell that to a lot of MMO developers whose sub base cannot breach 1 Mil while WoW has almost 10x that number.

The reason wow got there is directly because of BC, I truly believe it. It cemented the game.

[MagicBanana]

I keep seeing posts about less people doing raids, that that part is becoming smaller within wow, that we have 3 versions of raids for those who want to do it easy-mode, etc etc etc. Lots of opinions.


This is what I propose:

No more heroic raids, one raid fits all but keep a learning to raid for those that just want to experience and learn, they can decide if they want to get into the true spirit of raiding or not.

Give the raid back to the raiders. The others can have their 5 mans - quests - farming - pets - pvp and what not.

Give raids back to the raiders. Get rid of heroic raids. The model that worked best raid wise was Burning Crusade model. You had no gimmicky heroic versions, they just got progressively difficult. Not just the same boss again with a new ability added.

Give back raiding to the raiders, there is tons of other stuff for casuals and non-raiders to do. Raiding is a culture of its own, it is just about lost. I would like to see it saved.

Please read this with an open mind geared to discussion. It really is time raiding went back to those that love it and all the goals/difficulty that should be associated with it and all that it should entail.

World of warcraft has already moved far, far away from the BC raid style of progressive difficulty. They invested far too much time and work making LFR work out for the lesser raiders as well as the poeple who cannot commit to a raiding schedule. They invested just as much time making heroic encounters for all the meat-head "hardcore" raiders. So after spending so much time and resources to make everyone happy by making multiple versions of the same raid, what makes you think they will just drop all their hardwork to revert to a simpler yet inefficent raid model like the BC raids?

[mysticx]

I propose this: stop beating a dead horse, LFR and heroic modes are here and they're here to stay!

[RoKPaNda]

For all this talk about TBC raids being amazing, I very clearly recall during TBC raiders saying that the content was casual compared to Vanilla. Why strive for easy mode TBC raids? Go all the way and get vanilla raiding back.

[Wilderness]

ulduar, widely regarded as one of the best raid instances ever.

how about instead of just a heroic boss "doing more damage" or "summoning more adds", we have heroic bosses actually CHANGE like in ulduar? flame leviathan was a perfect example of how a boss can change based on, in that case, how many pillars you left up.

Its a good thing for your argument about "doing more damage" or "summoning more adds" for Ulduar hard modes that you stopped with Flame Leviathan; since the vast majority of Ulduar hm's were simply dps races or just did more damage.

[Shoukyaku2]

Nothing to see here, folks. Just some more elitist, special snowflake whining about how other people get to enjoy the raids.

Nothing to see here folks. Just some typical self entitled person using the cliched phrases "elitist" and "special snowflake" because they are too unoriginal to form a coherent and structured sentence or thought of their own.

[MangoSpirit]

why cant we just...

stop nerfing normal and heroic versions; unless there is a serious problem?

im 7/8 heroic. and not impressed. why? 35% debuff. and there is no incentive to raid w/o the buff. and no way to prove it.

casuals deserve to raid. as everyone does. Hardmode should be just that. HARD.

special snowflakes like OP can prance around in their 410ivl gear while casuals get their 390. THERES NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!

[Deleted]

You just compared a Ferrari with WoW so yeah. The only difference with an mmo and a SP game is that other people can see what you done, so this all makes me think you want boasting rights rather than anything else.

how would two worldwide well known companies be as different as a single and a team effort orientated games?
both offer a product it differs in who it appeals to , the games offer entertainment on either a personal level or a team level (which includes fair share of personal satisfaction aswell)

[Deleted]

You raider elitists need to stop being so ignorant. The game isnt just for you, you arent paying for it yourself. Im sick and tired of people saying shit like casuals shouldnt raid this or should just stick to this etc. We ALL pay for the game to experience ALL the content however the hell we want to experience it. God I just dont understand the mentality of you elitists.

Questing isn't for raiders either, casual

[Wildtree]

For all this talk about TBC raids being amazing, I very clearly recall during TBC raiders saying that the content was casual compared to Vanilla. Why strive for easy mode TBC raids? Go all the way and get vanilla raiding back.

OMG. you just had to open that can of worms now, did you? lol
And best, get rid of cross-realm raiding too... plus 40 man raiding.... That will work..
Nowadays you can raid for 2 - 3 hours to get the whole thing done from start to end. Back then by that time you started raiding if you were lucky. Cause only few guilds were able to supply 40 man for a raid lol
Not to mention the lag fest those fights caused..

[Deleted]

why cant we just...

stop nerfing normal and heroic versions; unless there is a serious problem?

im 7/8 heroic. and not impressed. why? 35% debuff. and there is no incentive to raid w/o the buff. and no way to prove it.

casuals deserve to raid. as everyone does. Hardmode should be just that. HARD.

special snowflakes like OP can prance around in their 410ivl gear while casuals get their 390. THERES NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!

it's wrong because it creates that whole shady grey area instead of people who can and cannot raid

[Wilderness]

Nothing to see here folks. Just some typical self entitled person using the cliched phrases "elitist" and "special snowflake" because they are too unoriginal to form a coherent and structured sentence or thought of their own.

Just because those phrases are thrown around a lot doesn't mean they aren't applicable at times. The OP wants to remove raids for no good reason except to deny others the ability to do "easier" content. Hardcore raiders have heroics, while others have LFR and normals. He just wants to make heroics the only raid to exclude other people. That's elitism.

[Theendgamelv3]

Two things for EVERYONE to consider:

1. When raiding was "hard" and "only 10-20% of people playing saw all the content"...WoW also had its HIGHEST SUBSCRIPTION COUNT. WoW gets easier...Subscriptions drastically go down... explain that...

2. When WoW was in its prime (TBC) raids started easy and got progressively harder, this DIDNT DISCOURAGE people, it brought teams closer to work harder and get better. There is a reason there are so many bads in WoW these days, there is no reason for them to grow their skill of the game REGARDLESS of how much time you have to play, you can be a casual player but still make the most of your time and be a GOOD casual player.

WOTLK is considered faceroll and that was when WoW had its highest sub count, so what you just said doesn't make sense. If there is no room to grow their skill, why wasn't everyone and their mom downing Heroic DS when it first came out? Why are there still wipes in LFR? There are so many bads because there are so many players. Also if people are so good, why are you even complaining about the bads anyways? You should be in a good guild to avoid them right? You should be doing heroic DS and beating it.

As for giving it back to the raiders.......first off according to Blizzard more people are raiding more than ever so it getting smaller and smaller is false. This is a good thing. Instead of a small % who gets to raid and gets to see everything, people can now see everything. With the old attunement method, not so. There were people still just doing the initial raids in BC and would never see the later tiers even at the end of that expansion. That to me isn't right, they should have access to those raids. This doesn't mean they should be able to go in and faceroll the raids, but give players a choice on what they want to raid. I like choice, a ton of people like choice as restriction sucks. Heroic raiders should have some content of their own so that is why I am more of a fan of heroic modes having a extra boss or phase which they did with T11 and T12. You talk about no more gimmicky raids, yet Ulduar is considered by most as one of the best raids ever due to its gimmicky nature of how hard modes worked in that raid.

[Dylamoo]

OMG. you just had to open that can of worms now, did you? lol
And best, get rid of cross-realm raiding too... plus 40 man raiding.... That will work..
Nowadays you can raid for 2 - 3 hours to get the whole thing done from start to end. Back then by that time you started raiding if you were lucky. Cause only few guilds were able to supply 40 man for a raid lol
Not to mention the lag fest those fights caused..

No a lot of people thought tbc raiding was the hardest, people just missed the aspect of 40 man that's all nothing more and nothing less. Infact the hardest part about vanilla was getting 40 people online and not have that 1 guy screw up and troll you.

[Anuibus]

Just because those phrases are thrown around a lot doesn't mean they aren't applicable at times. The OP wants to remove raids for no good reason except to deny others the ability to do "easier" content. Hardcore raiders have heroics, while others have LFR and normals. He just wants to make heroics the only raid to exclude other people. That's elitism.

Apparently you failed to read the part where he said there would still be a LFR style difficutly for lore/learning. What he wants to do is consolidate normals and heroics into one raid that gets progressively difficult like it used to in TBC. Probably even makes raids in general progressively difficult so you need to progress through the previous tier as well, but not sure about that part. That is something I would appreciate though, but I don't see either happening.

[Deleted]

You raider elitists need to stop being so ignorant. The game isnt just for you, you arent paying for it yourself. Im sick and tired of people saying shit like casuals shouldnt raid this or should just stick to this etc. We ALL pay for the game to experience ALL the content however the hell we want to experience it. God I just dont understand the mentality of you elitists.

alright experience content, commence the 1hp encounter just to tell you the story.
After that is what you asked for or isn't it?

[Gangplank]

This is a silly thread. The only thing that needs done is to do away with nerfing heroic raids with the aspects debuff. People who can't handle the most difficult content shouldn't eventually be entitled to the rewards/perks from nerfed encounters. I think the raid tiers are FINE however. It shouldn't affect hardcore raiders that people are raiding the easier LFR and only receiving the lowest ilvl tier gear.

[Wildtree]

Questing isn't for raiders either, casual

Hm.... a return to BC times means also questing is for raiders too...
Attunement galore....... No attunement, no entering...
Most guilds I know from back then required their raiders to get attuned. If you been too laxy to get attuned, chances are you weren't committed enough for a core spot.

[Wilderness]

Apparently you failed to read the part where he said there would still be a LFR style difficutly for lore/learning. What he wants to do is consolidate normals and heroics into one raid that gets progressively difficult like it used to in TBC. Probably even makes raids in general progressively difficult so you need to progress through the previous tier as well, but not sure about that part. That is something I would appreciate though, but I don't see either happening.

Apparently you failed to read a reply I already said to you earlier in the thread when you mentioned that "learning/lore tier". Yes, I saw what he wrote. He either wants to create a whole easy tier for learning/lore, which is a waste of development for the hardcore raiders (which is the group that he wants to make all these changes for), or he only wants a couple fights to be that way, so its still removing the vast majority of content for people who currently do LFR/normals.