Apparently I'm missing something...

[Fiddlesnarf]

About Dungeons and PvP in Guild Wars 2.

Are dungeons supposed to be only available to the best players? I've never played harder dungeons in any other game. Expert in RIFT and Heroic in WoW don't even come close to the sheer difficulty of dungeons in GW2.
They aren't even designed to be challenging, they are just plain designed terrible. When the legitimate strategy for a boss is to keep dying over and over and "graveyard" rush him, you know something is wrong. No game should have low level dungeons that have one-shot mechanics. I've beaten plenty of bosses, and I still don't know how you're really supposed to beat some of them.
I'm not even talking about Explorable modes only, Story modes too.
The problem is, there is simply too much shit going on, things aren't obvious enough, and things hit way too hard.
Its like the devs didn't know when to stop when adding mechanics to mobs and bosses, most bosses will have upwards to 4-5 mechanics, a couple of those will most likely insta-kill you.
You might say, "just avoid or dodge out of that stuff." Well the problem is, its hard and sometimes impossible to see what to avoid and when. Not everything you need to avoid appears as a red circle on the ground, which can't be seen in Firey areas anyway, which are aplenty. The things that don't have a circle to dodge out of, you have to pay attention to the bosses animations, which again is sometimes impossible. A lot of bosses are no bigger than player models and partical effects are too flashy so for most of the time you can't see the boss clearly. For all the other things, they simply have no warning, and stupidly enough, these are usually the one-shot mechanics.
Don't even get me started on trap rooms and hallways... a great idea, but terrible execution.

Now for PvP.
First off, what is the point of Mists PvP? I see none.
I've played PvP in WoW, SWToR, and RIFT, I've seen all the imbalances you can imagine. I have still yet to see an MMO properly balance a stealth class, I honestly don't see why games keep having stealth classes. Regardless, balance is not the issue here, not exactly.
I can't move in PvP, at all. Too many snares and etc. I play a Warrior, I'm not that great, but I'm also not that terrible either, I know what the fuck I'm doing. I'm not going to get too much into this since I'm still very new to this aspect, but so far I haven't had much fun.
Next issue, why the fuck are sharks in a PvP match? Why should they swarm players and do more damage than actual players? What purpose do they serve? Also, this "auto balancing" thing, complete garbage, if teams are mismatched don't take players from the winning side to the losing side automatically, simply add in more players or end the match early like every other PvP game in MMOs, there is a reason everyone else does it, I don't see how the devs for GW2 thought this was a good idea.
About WvW, I haven't played a lot of it, siimply because I thought it sucks. I will spend about 10mins running to where I need to go, then if I happen to die at any point, take durability damage (WTF?), then have to start at the very beginning of the entire zone.
It takes way too long to get anywhere in WvW, they either need to add mounts or a heck of a lot more waypoints.

There are my issues with PvP and dungeons, I might get into other aspects of the game if people give a crap.
My bottom line is, I am not having fun in PvP or dungeons because of the issues, there is so much that needs to be changed.
Let me compare launch PvP and dungeons in GW2 to other MMOs at their launch.

-RIFT
PvP - pretty meh. Slightly unbalanced, a little boring, queues were way too long. Other than that, I had some fun.
Dungeons - pretty fun, nice balanced challenges, good rewards, but every dungeons was either a dark cave, dark crypt, dark canyon, there were only a couple bright shiny dungeons, and those were very fun.
I give both PvP a 2.5/5 and Dungeons a 3/5

-SWToR
PvP- above average fun, nice and unique battlegrounds. Terrible balance issues at launch. Queues were fine, could have been better, but wasn't terrible.
Dungeons- very fun, the story heavy ones were fantastic, the others where very average and sometimes boring. The difficulty was kind of all over the place, you could easily go in without paying much attention to half the bosses, the other half would be quite challenging, but not frustrating.
I give SWToR PvP a 3.5/5 and dungeons a 4/5.

At this point and time I'd give GW2 PvP and dungeons both a 2/5, I'm being generous because I believe with a handful of changes these things can be fixed and become very fun.
Fix the difficulty in dungeons and transportation in WvW and GW2 could be the best new MMO to come out.

As far as leveling and questing goes, i'd simply rank the games, from worst to best... RIFT, WoW, GW2, SWToR.
GW2 is better than WoW by a large margin, but doesn't come anywhere close to SWToR.


Thanks for reading this, let me know what you think.

[Deleted]

Are dungeons supposed to be only available to the best players? I've never played harder dungeons in any other game. Expert in RIFT and Heroic in WoW don't even come close to the sheer difficulty of dungeons in GW2.
They aren't even designed to be challenging, they are just plain designed terrible. When the legitimate strategy for a boss is to keep dying over and over and "graveyard" rush him, you know something is wrong. No game should have low level dungeons that have one-shot mechanics. I've beaten plenty of bosses, and I still don't know how you're really supposed to beat some of them.
I'm not even talking about Explorable modes only, Story modes too.
The problem is, there is simply too much shit going on, things aren't obvious enough, and things hit way too hard.
Its like the devs didn't know when to stop when adding mechanics to mobs and bosses, most bosses will have upwards to 4-5 mechanics, a couple of those will most likely insta-kill you.
You might say, "just avoid or dodge out of that stuff." Well the problem is, its hard and sometimes impossible to see what to avoid and when. Not everything you need to avoid appears as a red circle on the ground, which can't be seen in Firey areas anyway, which are aplenty. The things that don't have a circle to dodge out of, you have to pay attention to the bosses animations, which again is sometimes impossible. A lot of bosses are no bigger than player models and partical effects are too flashy so for most of the time you can't see the boss clearly. For all the other things, they simply have no warning, and stupidly enough, these are usually the one-shot mechanics.
Don't even get me started on trap rooms and hallways... a great idea, but terrible execution.

There is lots of discussion about this. As a person who completed ever story and explo mode of every dungeon I can say with all honesty: Dungeons are awesome. Story mode usually is too plain and zergy, but damn, explorer modes are amazing. Great boss fights, mechanics and challenges.

Story modes are for people who don't play well who just want to see the content (think LFR in WoW). Explo modes are more interesting (maybe.. except AC :P) and more challenging and are not meant to be completed by everyone. I have yet to die in story mode :P.

Now for PvP.

Sorry, but.. l2p. Again sorry, but I'm not being an "ass", it's the truth. I play warrior and engineer myself and I don't have any issues. Give it some time, crunch some numbers, get defensive utility skills, experiment with builds and weapons, you'll get there. As for the auto balance mechanic - it's a love and hate thing. Personally I love it. I agree on the water map though, I'm not a fan of underwater combat.

About WvW, I haven't played a lot of it, siimply because I thought it sucks. I will spend about 10mins running to where I need to go, then if I happen to die at any point, take durability damage (WTF?), then have to start at the very beginning of the entire zone.
It takes way too long to get anywhere in WvW, they either need to add mounts or a heck of a lot more waypoints.

Then don't die. This not a bg. You need to run with at least few people to be effective there. If you got downed and your team8s can't rally you it means you fucked up (over-reached, tunnel vision etc) and deserve an hour walk back ;p. Also just think for a moment, how IMPOSSIBLE would be to take or assault a keep if waypoints would be within reach...

[Aceshigh]

At this point and time I'd give GW2 PvP and dungeons both a 2/5, I'm being generous because I believe with a handful of changes these things can be fixed and become very fun.
Thanks for reading this, let me know what you think.

I think giving a rating for the current point in time then being generous with it because of the potential it might have is slightly strange.

[Deleted]

It really must come down to opinion with dungeons because I am not a particularly good or skilled gamer (just stubborn and persistent), and I do not find dungeons hard - or rather, I find them challenging enough to actually make them fun to complete without it being totally faceroll enough to bore me. Some of them are hard, yes you do die a lot, yes there is a LOT of stuff happening, it can be hard to see, it can be a wipe fest, sometimes it can be a zerg fest, but if all I was doing was following some basic instructions of "XXX is casting firebolt, move away!", I would get bored out of my mind.

The one shot mechanics are designed because it's not technically a one shot due to the downed state. You have the chance and opportunity to get back up again, especially if your group is on the ball. Even if someone in your group cannot reach you, multiple professions have spells/abilities that rez downed people, for a co-ordinated group a downed state is not a problem and therefore you shouldn't see going down as necessarily a "one shot". You say not to tell you to dodge but let's face it, every single mechanic IS dodgeable and therefore getting hit by them is a matter of skill. I'm not being insulting, because I can assure you now that if there's something to get hit by, 99% of the time I will get hit by it... that just lets me know I've got some room for improvement.

Anyway, if dungeons fit your criteria of being fun by removing everything you've listed here, I'd probably not enjoy them, it may simply come down to you can't please everyone.

What I would suggest is finding a guild / some friends to run with. You should not be crying in dungeons, you should be laughing and having fun with people. They are definitely not only available to the best people.

[Katsuragisama]

I havent even done a dungeon yet, as most of the people I came from SW:TOR to GW2 have been off a lot, and just recently all came back? O_O

I will agree, sharks in the Capricorn map piss me off to no end when I'm not spamming Shadow Assault with my Thief. Speaking of thieves, you mentioned they need to properly balance a stealth class, or just remove it. I'm assuming (so I may be wrong, but probably not) that you are talking about heartseeker spam.

You think HS spam is bad? Try a Warrior's Bull Charge (or whatever it's called) > Hundred Blades. Much worse than HS spam if you dont see that bulls charge coming and can dodge it. The only thing that comes close to it is thieves' Pistol Whip. Which feels so clunky in a sPvP match, that you pretty much have to use Devourer's Venom to make sure your opponent stands still for the duration of the attack. Heartseeker spam is easy to dodge.

Also, I find it hard to believe you complain about crowd control (snares, roots, immobilizes), and then say SW:TOR is better. Being stunned completely for 4 seconds back to back is more fun? Then you're dead, with your resolve bar draining down, as the spawn door finally opens. No more resolve by this point, since the doors take up to 30 seconds to even open at times. The moment you walk out you're: stunned, raped, stunned, raped some more, dead. Sure you can break that stun on a 90 - 120 second timer (CC Breaker). Most of the time on my Thief I usually end up switching my heal to Withdraw, as it breaks immobilize, crippled, and chill, heals me, and evades on a 15 sec. CD.

I havent made the other classes yet, but I'm thinking of making a 100B Warrior just to see how faceroll it is. And I already planned on playing a Mesmer at some point, as it just looks fun as hell. I hate HS spam builds. I prefer a backstab or conditioned centered build (condition build using D/D or P/D). So I suspect I will be bored of 100B spam within an hour as well.

PS: You shouldnt say, "I know what the fuck I'm doing", followed by, "I'm not going to get too much into this since I'm still very new to this aspect". The second tends to contradict and cancel out the previous statement. As Swiped said, not to be an ass, but it sounds like a L2P issue...

[Deleted]

You think HS spam is bad? Try a Warrior's Bull Charge (or whatever it's called) > Hundred Blades. Much worse than HS spam if you dont see that bulls charge coming and can dodge it. [...] I havent made the other classes yet, but I'm thinking of making a 100B Warrior just to see how faceroll it is.

Even if you're unable to evade, or blind, or immobilize, or stun, or fear... all you need to do is use your stun-break ability and get out of the way. Yes, 100B warriors can take a good couple of easy kills on newbies (read: new players), but it won't take long for a decent player to learn to use a stun-break ability whenever a greatsword warrior stuns you or knocks you down.

[Starry101]

Now for PvP.
First off, what is the point of Mists PvP? I see none.
I've played PvP in WoW, SWToR, and RIFT, I've seen all the imbalances you can imagine. I have still yet to see an MMO properly balance a stealth class, I honestly don't see why games keep having stealth classes. Regardless, balance is not the issue here, not exactly.
I can't move in PvP, at all. Too many snares and etc. I play a Warrior, I'm not that great, but I'm also not that terrible either, I know what the fuck I'm doing. I'm not going to get too much into this since I'm still very new to this aspect, but so far I haven't had much fun.
Next issue, why the fuck are sharks in a PvP match? Why should they swarm players and do more damage than actual players? What purpose do they serve? Also, this "auto balancing" thing, complete garbage, if teams are mismatched don't take players from the winning side to the losing side automatically, simply add in more players or end the match early like every other PvP game in MMOs, there is a reason everyone else does it, I don't see how the devs for GW2 thought this was a good idea.

Those PvP rooms/maps are for fun, not tournament play. You dont really get much benefit for winning over losing. The 5v5 tournaments are much more balanced, no water map and actually reward winning over losing. If you are serious about pvp, you should be playing these instead.

[cmdrcod]

...perhaps GW2 is designed for you to pay $60 if you missed that well...that is the state of the game. Its a bad game in my 20+ years of gaming but what the fuck do i know.

[Reucht]

I have only done story modes (it's not a faceroll, but not particularly hard either), but I'm glad to know the explorer modes exist. If GW2 is to occupy me for a long time, I'm glad I have a wall I can run into for a long time.

Also, one shot doesn't exist and use condition removers (in PvP AND PvE).

If you keep crying like a little girl, Anet will nerf explorer modes before I even tried them and then "Imma come knocking on ya door".

[Awe]

I take it that traveling back to action place in WvWvW takes long. But that is exactly the point. If we assault the keep and manage to bring one defender down, there it goes, that one step towards victory. Becouse he wont respawn after 30 seconds 40 yards away. No, he will respawn at the other end of map and either will take a long treck back or perhaps not come back at all. This means that killing someone serves a bigger purpose. It also punishes all the rambo guys running around with mentality "i am big and strong and i charge alone into 8 people", God I hated those folks in WoW battlegrounds. Durablity loss on death in WvWvW? Thats becouse you are not supposed to die often. This is not a battleground in WoW. If you die often, you are doing something wrong. This is a different type of PvP and you are free to not like it. But it does not make this model objectively bad. Another extreme example would be PvP in EvE Online where if you die (or get ganked) not only you may respawn at the other end of the galaxy (takes several minutes to get back) but you may also permanently loose stuff which you spent dozens of hours grinding for. And some people enjoy that concept. Some (probably majority) dont. But again, this does not mean it is bad by definition.

[DreamCast]

//post edit for content//

...perhaps GW2 is designed for you to pay $60 if you missed that well...that is the state of the game. Its a bad game in my 20+ years of gaming but what the fuck do i know.

What games have you payed a once off payment that has been better then gw2? I actually can't think of any, maybe diablo 2.

[mafao]

I didn't find the story mode dungeon (only did AC so far) to be too hard. Sure, is harder than anything I played in WoW on heroics, but WoW PvE is too easy anyway. The trick is to coordinate well with other players. I did the dungeon with a PUG, but the people were really good so were able to clear it quickly without any major issues. Yeah, I died 4 times or so. I also played as melee and didn't encounter any significant difficulty when doing so. You just have to dodge + have a friend to rezz you when you are in a pinch We didn't have to GV run the boss at any point though — the boss fights were too easy actually. The only really interesting fight was the lovers boss due.

Pro-Tip: boulders rule!

Disclaimer: I am by no means a hardcore player. I see myself as a casual —*I didn't even raid in WoW or any other game because I found PVE to be so boring. But GW2 PVE combat is very fun and so I enjoy it immensely.

[Deleted]

<-- snip -->

Agreed:

- WvW and the running thing, unfun. There need to be more waypoints but not lots of them. Just 2 or so to cover about 1/2 the distance.
- Some of the dungeon mechanics are ... uninteresting.
- Particle effects and animation effects muddy the screen too much
- Lots of CC in the game at the moment and very limited ability to counter for some professions
- Stealth = not targetable. Show me another non-stealth ability that allows you to make your enemy switch targets.
- One-shot mechanics are about as fun as going up against Rambo with a screwdriver ...

Disagreed:

- Auto-balancing ensures there's fewer teams with all leavers or just people that joined 20 points away from losing. I volunteer every time. Win/loss ratio doesn't matter as that isn't decided by you anyway. Teams are random, mixed bag is mixed, just do the best you can and get your glory points. Don't like it? Free tournaments are available.
- Trap hallways are awesome
- The sharks ... they're annoying but make the point defense easier. Without it, I think, ruins would just be a constant flickerswitch or it would become the new mid.
- Dungeons aren't "too" hard, they just have a level of difficulty that requires a small adjustment
- Not having fun in SPVP probably has more to do with how you're approaching it than anything. Try moar. Succeed moar. Enjoy moar. Try new builds, look at what others are doing, approach it differently, try out not getting into big fights, stick with others. Find whatever works for you and do that. Don't complain that the way you're going about it right now isn't working. That's not a problem, it's a challenge. You should rise to the occasion and become a better player.

That's a wrap.

[Deleted]

Dungeons have a massive learning curve if you're coming from pure solo PvE play or WvW zergs, you need 5 people with the right support specs and utility traits/slots, lots of coordination, voice chat is a massive plus and huge amounts of teamwork.

The reason you're failing or graveyard zerging is because your group is bad, sorry to say it but that's all there is, yes the dungeons are hard but they're not impossible, you just have to approach them as mini-WoW raids.

[Deleted]

I tried AC at level 30 and it put me off the dungeons, it was a non stop wipefest. Now im level 80 with mostly exotic gear and I still haven't set foot in a dungeon since that point. I will get around to doing them at some point but to me they wasn't ''hard'' they just felt over-tuned. There's nothing hard about getting 1-2 shot by a random trash mob (trash 10+ harder than the bosses btw) it's just a bad mechanic in my opinion (especially as melee)

I must admit I was built for damage leveling and next time I try a dungeon I will be sure to pick up a few defensive abilities though.

[micklavier]

For Dungeons:

I've only done AC on story mode and it was quite tough. Tbh, it was only tough because my party was playing with old habits (i.e. standing in ONE place, NOT reviving others, and going auto-pilot a lot)

I enjoyed it immensely.

For PvP:

I'm Rank 15 now and I've never had as issue with too much CC. I play a Ranger and I had to mess with a few trait builds and weapon combos (and pets) to finally feel competent in PvP. Now, I'm topping charts about half the time and getting served the rest. Warriors (100bladesOUCH) seem especially potent if I let them get too close.

If you feel there is too much CC maybe avoid large crowds in sPvP. Whenever I see a large group forming on a point I realize there is probably another point to capture with MAYBE one enemy.

WvWvW:

I don't know what to say here. I freaking love it. Lots of fun to be had in that entire zone. If you're bored of the zerg fest, go explore and find some 1v1. It's up to you really. Go do the jumping puzzle!

I've played WoW, RIFT, SW:tor, and EQ (99') and I've never had more fun in an MMO. And by the way, SW:tor pvp was not fun IMO and the dungeons were boring to me.

And btw, the dungeons in GW2 require you to communicate with your party. I know this isn't the case in really any other MMO for 5 man dungeons. Before you could enter the dungeon and you knew exactly what to do in most cases. You have to plan things out here.

[Deleted]

I tried AC at level 30 and it put me off the dungeons, it was a non stop wipefest. Now im level 80 with mostly exotic gear and I still haven't set foot in a dungeon since that point. I will get around to doing them at some point but to me they wasn't ''hard'' they just felt over-tuned. There's nothing hard about getting 1-2 shot by a random trash mob (trash 10+ harder than the bosses btw) it's just a bad mechanic in my opinion (especially as melee)

I must admit I was built for damage leveling and next time I try a dungeon I will be sure to pick up a few defensive abilities though.

That's a real shame, AC at level 30 absolutely is overtuned. Don't let it stop you going back, going into dungeons at level 80 is very different and they can be a lot of fun. I try to look on the bright side of pretty much everything but even I got pretty depressed the first time I went into AC with a full group of level 30s... give the other ones a go

[Fawxey]

A huge part of the problem, is the complete lack of diminishing returns on trash mechanics. It is pretty stupid dying to a trash pack because any sort of stability is on cool-down and you spend your entire HP pool lying on the ground due to chain knock-back etc.

[mafao]

That's a real shame, AC at level 30 absolutely is overtuned.

I hope they don't make it any easier. Again, I found it to be very doable and enjoyable — and that with a random PUG, no voice communication, my normal leveling dps spec (Guardian) and no particular tactics adjustments. You just have to pay attention to what happens and to your teammates, that's all. And I am FAR from being a hardcore PVE player, as I already said.

[nocturnus]

Explorable modes are very hard indeed. The bosses are pretty well balanced and actually easy compared to the trash that preceeds them. I will stay away from explos until they nerf the trash. Many packs are ridiculously overtuned and almost not doable without dying at least 5 times in a row.

Imo, trash should be hard, but not like this. Give us 2 tough veterans with huge healthpools and extremely strong telegraphed abilities. Don't give us a room with 12 veterans spamming bombs, oneshotting you with arrows and knocking you down.

I love GW2 but explo trash is utterly overtuned.

I hope they don't make it any easier. Again, I found it to be very doable and enjoyable — and that with a random PUG, no voice communication, my normal leveling dps spec (Guardian) and no particular tactics adjustments. You just have to pay attention to what happens and to your teammates, that's all. And I am FAR from being a hardcore PVE player, as I already said.

I think they're talking about explorable modes, which aren't comparable to story modes. Those are perfectly well balanced.