Melee and Ranged Imbalance In Guild Wars 2

[Cthulhu 2020]

As an engineer, I do tend to find myself at an advantage in large group "zerg" situations, and even when I get out of large group zerg situations and find random WvWers in the warfronts, I can easily mop the floor with almost anyone, but especially melee.

However, I believe this is mostly due to my full exotic/rare gear setup with a heavy emphasis on DPS gear with only a few pieces of survivability gear. Most people in WvW aren't 80, much less have good gear setup (since gear does matter in WvW since you are only "leveled up" to 80 stat wise for base stats). I'm noticing more and more that people are becoming harder to just simply burst down, and my survivability is becoming questionable, to the point where I asked a friend about it and they said once everyone has the gear, WvW is probably going to be about stacking toughness and vit, since just simply killing people is not the overall objective.

However, I will say this, warriors are by no sense of the word "bad" in PvP. If you're gauging your viability off running around with the zerg in WvW, that's not a good scale to measure your PvP viability at all. Not in the least. The zerg fests that run back and forth from one keep to another aren't really all that influential in the overall battle. In fact it's a pretty bad gauge, since those zerg fests are just a bunch of ranged taking pot shots at each other and very few people ever actually die.

TL;DR - If you find yourself feeling useless in the big zergs, it's because the big zergs are useless. Join a small guild group that stays away from the zergs, or uses them to reinforce a keep assault. Also, once you hit 80 (if you're not already there) you'll notice a big difference, especially once you start to get survivability gear. If you're not in survivability gear, well there's a reason the exotic PvP armor is power, toughness, and vit.

[Oinkeye]

As an engineer, I do tend to find myself at an advantage in large group "zerg" situations, and even when I get out of large group zerg situations and find random WvWers in the warfronts, I can easily mop the floor with almost anyone, but especially melee.

However, I believe this is mostly due to my full exotic/rare gear setup with a heavy emphasis on DPS gear with only a few pieces of survivability gear. Most people in WvW aren't 80, much less have good gear setup (since gear does matter in WvW since you are only "leveled up" to 80 stat wise for base stats). I'm noticing more and more that people are becoming harder to just simply burst down, and my survivability is becoming questionable, to the point where I asked a friend about it and they said once everyone has the gear, WvW is probably going to be about stacking toughness and vit, since just simply killing people is not the overall objective.

However, I will say this, warriors are by no sense of the word "bad" in PvP. If you're gauging your viability off running around with the zerg in WvW, that's not a good scale to measure your PvP viability at all. Not in the least. The zerg fests that run back and forth from one keep to another aren't really all that influential in the overall battle. In fact it's a pretty bad gauge, since those zerg fests are just a bunch of ranged taking pot shots at each other and very few people ever actually die.

TL;DR - If you find yourself feeling useless in the big zergs, it's because the big zergs are useless. Join a small guild group that stays away from the zergs, or uses them to reinforce a keep assault. Also, once you hit 80 (if you're not already there) you'll notice a big difference, especially once you start to get survivability gear. If you're not in survivability gear, well there's a reason the exotic PvP armor is power, toughness, and vit.

^ This -

I f you DO insist on flailing around in a zerg, equip a hammer and enjoy the ride.

[SirRobin]

^ This -

I f you DO insist on flailing around in a zerg, equip a hammer and enjoy the ride.

I completely agree that a big part of current oddness has to do with the "in progress" state of most players. Unless we get a big nerf, the general strength of ranged versus melee will probably become much less noticeable. As more and more players get exotics and the transients go back to other games, I expect WvW will get more brutal.

[rhinomatic]

As a sword/sword heavy crit/condition build, I absolutely love melee in WvW. I can stack the bleeds fast, my attacks do a fair amount of damage, and I do a lot of hit and run attacks. Withdraw and use the rifle for kiting if I draw too much attention.

[Artorias]

Oh no it's diablo 3 all over again

[Glytch]

Oh no it's diablo 3 all over again

Hardly

People merely think range is better since melee is too hard for them

[Shadylol]

Hardly

People merely think range is better since melee is too hard for them

No, I've played Melee in other games (Warriors and Rogues in WoW are a personal favorite), including the aforementioned Diablo 3... though I'm not sure D3 is really relevant to GW2, but whatever. The problem in GW2 has nothing to do with skill, but fundamental design decisions, I suggest you read my OP, if you'd like to know some of these problems. It's very informative

[Glytch]

No, I've played Melee in other games (Warriors and Rogues in WoW are a personal favorite), including the aforementioned Diablo 3... though I'm not sure D3 is really relevant to GW2, but whatever. The problem in GW2 has nothing to do with skill, but fundamental design decisions, I suggest you read my OP, if you'd like to know some of these problems. It's very informative

just because i disagree doesnt mean i didnt read

you dont get to be "right" by making large posts

[Durzlla]

No, I've played Melee in other games (Warriors and Rogues in WoW are a personal favorite), including the aforementioned Diablo 3... though I'm not sure D3 is really relevant to GW2, but whatever. The problem in GW2 has nothing to do with skill, but fundamental design decisions, I suggest you read my OP, if you'd like to know some of these problems. It's very informative

Hi! Im a ranger and I dive straight into the heart of Zergs in WvW kill people and then slip away to the safety of either A) water (cause no one has the balls to fight aquaman in his home front!!) or B) back into my keep where I can command my pet to finish the job as I heal up for another assault

I fail to see how Melee is weaker then ranged in anyway... In fact, range is so slow paced and boring in GW2 that even -I- don't stay in ranged unless I'm near death and need to escape from people incase I get downed... Normally I don't want to be anywhere NEAR front lines btw.... I'm the sort of guy that stands as far away as physically possible in most games and snipes...

I will say that without a doubt that Melee is harder to play then ranged, and as such is seen as "bad" or "broken" by the worse players of the game who all go ranged because its safe and easy...

[Kaneth]

No, I've played Melee in other games (Warriors and Rogues in WoW are a personal favorite), including the aforementioned Diablo 3... though I'm not sure D3 is really relevant to GW2, but whatever. The problem in GW2 has nothing to do with skill, but fundamental design decisions, I suggest you read my OP, if you'd like to know some of these problems. It's very informative

Just because you can play as melee in other games, doesn't mean you will be able to play it well in all games. GW2 does have a higher skillcap for melee than most other games I have played. A big part of melee in GW2 is knowing your combos, and how to dish out damage at a rapid clip, but you additionally have to recognize when it's time to dodge out and reduce your incoming damage. Melee is an intricate balance between short and mid range fighting.

You can play melee just fine in WvW, as long as you're not stupid about it. Melee works best as flankers and protectors in my experience. In open field fighting, you'll have the brunt of the two forces exchanging ranged attacks, with a bit of a killing field in between them. However, a smallish pack of melee can move around and flank from either a side or pincer from behind and do some serious damage. Once the confusion sets in, your main force is able to push in and either decimate or force a retreat. If you just run in head first as a melee, you're going to die, it takes some thoughtfulness. Protecting siege weapons might not be a fun job, but it's necessary for victory, and melee can perform that task damn well too.

Additionally, I find it to be a very good idea to equip a melee and ranged combo on almost all professions. Having options at various ranges is never a bad thing. I typically run my warrior and Greatsword/Rifle or Longbow and MH Sword, OH Axe. Lay down the fire patch with the longbow adrenaline skill, leap in with sword and cyclone with axe, you have a fire aura from the leap and burning bolts from cyclone axe. Not much of anything will survive much longer after that.

Ranged is safer to a degree, but lacks the overall damage output of melee, which seems to be a decent design imo.

[Deleted]

I have a strong suspicion that a ranged Warrior does more damage than a Ranger

I also have a strong suspicion that a greatsword warrior does about 3-4 times more damage then a ranged one. a ranged warrior is decent but the real damage lies in getting up close.

[DrakeWurrum]

Sounds like you're complaining about WvWvW being imabalanced. That's pretty much by design. It's never going to be, as this game is balanced around small 5-man groups.

[mafao]

I also have a strong suspicion that a greatsword warrior does about 3-4 times more damage then a ranged one. a ranged warrior is decent but the real damage lies in getting up close.

Well, there is no doubt about that

[melodramocracy]

People merely think range is better since melee is too hard for them

Or perhaps people realize that there are unquestionable advantages to being at range, especially in most MMO's.

[rhinomatic]

Or perhaps people realize that there are unquestionable advantages to being at range, especially in most MMO's.

In most MMOs, yes. In WoW, for example, they attempt to design the classes so that damage is roughly the same, so if a rogue and a mage are capable of the same DPS but the mage has to deal with less mechanics, the mage has the advantage.

In GW2, they compensate by making melee do a lot more damage. So it's a tradeoff, you can have high damage, or you can survive better. For most people, survival is the better way to go because it's easier. For those that can do it, they take melee and enjoy the damage.

Glytch isn't being very tactful, but he is still correct. Melee IS harder but it's also more effective. Some people can do it, some can't. Play what works for you.

[DrakeWurrum]

Or perhaps people realize that there are unquestionable advantages to being at range, especially in most MMO's.

There are also unquestionable advantages to being in melee, in GW2.

[Supakaiser]

I roll Sword/Warhorn + Longbow as a Ranger in PvE and PvP and one thing I've noticed (currently level 73 -- Slow due to sticking to friend's being around to level with) is that trying to melee on say a strong world champion (Fire boss in Metrica, Fire shaman in Iron Marches, etc...) or most Story/Explorable mode bosses is really difficult and by that I mean seemingly impossible.

I can't seem to get in one set of combos most of the time before I just -drop- so I feel like I'm forced to sit back with my longbow and just peck at things when I really, really enjoy the precision+%crit damage build with the sword/warhorn combo (melee).

[DrakeWurrum]

I can't seem to get in one set of combos most of the time before I just -drop-

Need to avoid the dangerous attacks.

[Kazdum]

No, I've played Melee in other games (Warriors and Rogues in WoW are a personal favorite), including the aforementioned Diablo 3... though I'm not sure D3 is really relevant to GW2, but whatever. The problem in GW2 has nothing to do with skill, but fundamental design decisions, I suggest you read my OP, if you'd like to know some of these problems. It's very informative

Your OP is wrong, here are just some of the posts on the biggest GW2 elementalist forum:

In a game that's based around anyone being able to have aggro and live. An elementalist who specs as much as he can into survivability is still only half as durable as most classes who dont

I just seem to die all the time, I don't do nearly that great of damage without sacrificing what little defense I have. Everyone seems to tell me they're the highest damage, but from personal experience we're nowhere near that. Thiefs are without a doubt the best damage for pvp, and excel at not dieing as well.

in GW2 i currently have 40 tourneys played, of which 33 were wins and 7 were second place, i am also rank 13 (my pvp grp is all 16-20 i dont get as much glory/rank as i mainly def objectives so i miss out on alot of capture/kills) we havent been out before the final round, do u know in all of these games how many teams that had an ele got to the final? 1 team with 1 ele, why? eles are super bad in tourney play

my team for example runs this set up:

me guardian- sword shield/hammer (20k hp 3.6k armor and 1300 def) i am toughness based and my job is to solo hold strategic points untill backup arrives
mesmer- roamer and also a good point holder due to clones
ranger- roamer and high dps
thief- roamer
second guard/warrior- either def guard or burst warrior and we switch our play style accordingly

now all of us run very mobility and defensive orientated builds apart from the mesmer who's illusion summoning adds to his survivability while being able to spec all out dps, and our warrior.

as an example i managed to hold off an ele + necro + guardian alone for 35 seconds at a capture point untill my team showed up and i even killed the ele while doing it

and here is why i think eles are bad: as OP says if u spec into all out dmg build u end up with great crit and power and crit dmg but u get like 10k hp no toughness or u build into def/hp/toughness and u end up with 15k hp and the lowest armor and toughness of any class and do terrible dmg

both of these are flawed as playing an ele ur job is dmg primarily, being super squishy even when specced into defensive traits and taking defensive amulets etc means makign a def ele is out of the question, so that leaves going all out dmg build but being a glass cannon... but oh wait, as an ele the best weps for burst is daggers MH/OH but there is a problem with that, ur hard hitters either bring u in super close to targets because of the range requirements or can be easily avoided (dragons tooth thing)

playing against an organised team like mine means that ele will be priority 1 as its a super easy kill and automatically gives us the advantage in the skirmish, even if the ele does by some miracle burst some1 down (which is unlikely) we all spec into revival assist traits (i drop a shield that knocks back every 10 secs) or can use my other bubbles from utilities etc and we will ress whoever was downed and the eles skills are all cd making him useless (burst eles use arcane traits to aid in burst these are the cds i am talking about here)

seems to me like eles will have no place in tourney play for now with the buid and tacs i am seeing they just cannot do thier job, even if goin staff spec healer on an ele is pointless and u die so fast (to compare my staff guardian only had 13.8k hp but again super toughness and pro utilities and heal spells to keep me alive) ele can be bursted by anyone is about 3 secs in this build.


as fas as staff ele for support, it doesnt work, support will always be the focus n tourney play or organised spvp and u dont have the tools to take the focus and do ur job (what i mean by this is u either try heal through it and die or u pop utilities etc to survive but u cant support when u do this e.g mist form) My guard can pop bubbles to knock back, pop shouts for insane boons, pop my f2 and f3 skills for a heal and a block on demand, pop a super bubble that wont let people or attacks inside and buys me time to pop my elite and heal myself and my whole group up to full, and all while being focussed.

So yeah, wrong.

[Clockwork Pinkie]

Only way I see them favor range is that there's fare less things to dodge/not stand in during fights, plus kiting vet mobs and using less healing. Everything else seems ok to me, I'm currently DW swords and greatsword for damage staff for support offhand and I notice it's way more fun and does way more damage with the swords. With it's basic attacks.