Why is WoW moving away from raiding?

[thedingleberry]

OP,

False. We don't need 10 man to drop lower loot lvl than 25 man. They are mutually exclusive and having both options cater to a larger audience. The game is not "[INSERT YOUR NAME] of Warcraft", rather, it is "World of Warcraft" because it is about a world people can share and all enjoy however they like.

[Alilei32]

98% casual players
2% progressraiders

can be closed

So that means we shouldnt get content? Also since when do casuals not raid? Just because they arent raiding 6 nights a week doesnt mean they still dont. I have been in quite a few guilds that were casual and just ahd open raid nights where you signed up. It was always different people going so obviously we were getting people with different levels of commitment to raids.

---------- Post added 2012-09-17 at 10:10 AM ----------

Raided since Vanilla. Still raid. Nice try, but you have no clue what's going on.

Instead of making a useless statement like this tell me where Im wrong?

---------- Post added 2012-09-17 at 10:10 AM ----------

OP,

False. We don't need 10 man to drop lower loot lvl than 25 man. They are mutually exclusive and having both options cater to a larger audience. The game is not "[INSERT YOUR NAME] of Warcraft", rather, it is "World of Warcraft" because it is about a world people can share and all enjoy however they like.

What larger audience this killed 25 man raiding

[Deleted]

Also raided since vanilla, wish I could give people a whack with the 1.5ft wooden duck on my desk every time I see people complaining about multiple difficulties and the like while claiming to be some hardcore raider.

Multiple difficulties are good, it means they can tune the lower ones to lower difficulties and give heroics a higher difficulty without having to make cost-benefit analysis' based on how much of the playerbase will see the hard modes - because the majority of the work can be applied to the lower difficulties too.

If you don't want LFR to exist, I hope you can stomach having more 7 boss raid tiers.

Seriously, these argument do nothing but cast raiders in a terrible light, stop making them and invest the time spent typing this rubbish into figuring out how to keep hard raids hard, not removing easy raids. Protip: they're not mutually exclusive.

[dapperedodo]

Dude I don't get your point at all. 1st I see gear rabble gear and then you get paranoid about blizzard phasing raiders out.
You said yourselve that raiders make up a very small % of the playerbase but still most of their development goes into raiding and I doubt it will change anytime soon. There is nothing really nothing holding you back from putting some effort into forming a guild or pug to go back to t11 or even older raids. The only 1 holding you back is yourselve. Blizzard just made wow so that you don't have to work months to come back on track or on track even wich is good cause it keeps people playing.

[Tarumuat]

And how many of those people actually moved out of LFR and started doing normals and hardmodes. Id like to see a stat on that becase thats the only way to show if LFR really got non raiders interested in raiding. LFR was a joke and a child could complete it. To call it a raid is insulting.

I know at least 4 people. Have two of them in my Real ID. One of them now is thinking of joining the world first guilds. I played far longer than him and only through him I found out who Griggs or Blood Legion was.

It may not be that many people. It even encouraged me a little to get back to raiding. In fact I left the awesome social guild on some chars to find more luck in downing 4.3

I dont? I think I do. Anyone who cant see what raids have become either didnt play anything prior to Wrath or just dont raid at all.

There is no more gear progression. I am correct
They combined 10/25 mans killing 25 man raiding. I am correct
They add 5 mans with better loot than previous tiered raids rendering them useless. I am correct
They only add one raid per new tier. I am correct

You might not agree with me, which is fine, but I didnt just make stuff up.

Perhaps you didn't. But you saying as if Blizz is on genocide to wipe out hardcore raiders. Which is what other people are pointing out. You can still raid with changes above.

[Eadoin]

I would argue Blizzard's moving towards raiding. They're introducing things on every level for new raiders: LFR for the casual, incremental buff/nerfs for the semi-hardcore, and Cutting Edge Achievements for the Hardcore. The carrot on the stick exists on every level now (except perhaps the cutting edge hardcore, but traditionally they've never been about long bouts of raiding anyways, they do everything in short bursts).

And yes, the idea of Cutting Edge Achievements is enough to give you a reason to keep raiding after you've cleared all the content, if you're one of those people who doesn't care about achievements then you shouldn't care about completing heroic encounters either, as far as I'm concerned the Cutting Edge Achievements are progression.

Edit: As for the 25s vs 10s thing; GC admitted a few days ago (finally) that he sees it as an issue that needs to be addressed. The fact he's finally recognized it as a problem is a bit step towards a solution.

[Ohleemar]

Why? You've made no point except for whining about not having it your way. I responded in the style you did.

[Deleted]

There is more focus on raiding now than there has ever been. Back in Vanilla there was just one difficulty, now we have 3.

[Hanto]

o-o Wow, the OP is still arguing this? I would think anything after Chonar's response pretty much shuts out any argument the OP is trying to make.

[Alilei32]

I would argue Blizzard's moving towards raiding. They're introducing things on every level for new raiders: LFR for the casual, incremental buff/nerfs for the semi-hardcore, and Cutting Edge Achievements for the Hardcore. The carrot on the stick exists on every level now (except perhaps the cutting edge hardcore, but traditionally they've never been about long bouts of raiding anyways, they do everything in short bursts).

And yes, the idea of Cutting Edge Achievements is enough to give you a reason to keep raiding after you've cleared all the content, if you're one of those people who doesn't care about achievements then you shouldn't care about completing heroic encounters either, as far as I'm concerned the Cutting Edge Achievements are progression.

Edit: As for the 25s vs 10s thing; GC admitted a few days ago (finally) that he sees it as an issue that needs to be addressed. The fact he's finally recognized it as a problem is a bit step towards a solution.

The main problem I have is only getting one raid per new tier. I dont find raiding the same thing with no other options for 7-8 months fun.

[Tarumuat]

I would argue Blizzard's moving towards raiding. They're introducing things on every level for new raiders: LFR for the casual, incremental buff/nerfs for the semi-hardcore, and Cutting Edge Achievements for the Hardcore. The carrot on the stick exists on every level now (except perhaps the cutting edge hardcore, but traditionally they've never been about long bouts of raiding anyways, they do everything in short bursts).

And yes, the idea of Cutting Edge Achievements is enough to give you a reason to keep raiding after you've cleared all the content, if you're one of those people who doesn't care about achievements then you shouldn't care about completing heroic encounters either, as far as I'm concerned the Cutting Edge Achievements are progression.

Edit: As for the 25s vs 10s thing; GC admitted a few days ago (finally) that he sees it as an issue that needs to be addressed. The fact he's finally recognized it as a problem is a bit step towards a solution.

I agree with this. I would say it's opposite of what OP is saying. Blizzard is trying to get more people into raiding (for better or worse).

You can also adjust difficulty all by yourself. Raid with lower gear, messed up class set up, raid naked ffs.

[Cybran]

The vocal majority of bad casuals doesn't have the desire to put effort in their RPG so they twisted blizzards wrist till they got their Arcade game with social networking capabilities.

[Fiddycen]

The majority of players don't raid? Everyone raids in world of warcraft now. Everyone

down to the last noob. lol

[Fenixdown]

Feel free to add to it then. Like how we can get away from the crappy idea that Blizzard thought up where One raid per tier that we have to do for 7 months with nothing else to raid because they also added some lame 5 mans that drop better loot than the old raids so no point in doing those old raids anymore..

I see someone is still stuck in what is now pretty much the past and not looking at what is close to being the present at all.

*looks at MoP first tier*

Yeah...that's definitely just like Dragon Soul design.

I give up. I'm jut putting anyone who posts nonsense like this on my ignore list. I can't take any more.

[Justignoreme]

Baker: "In addition to loafs of bread and cake, we're now selling donuts! They're smaller than either but also tasty."
Normal Customer: "Yay!"

Baker: "In addition to loafs of bread and cake, we're now selling donuts! They're smaller than either but also tasty."
Herpaderp: "Why are you moving away from loafs?"

<3 great metaphor

[MasterHamster]

There's a lot of blue post regarding the BC raid model and why it didn't work except for the select few.

[Maxilian]

They are not punishing anyone..., is just that these time they want to give PVP players more things to do, it would be unfair if every expansion was targeted to PVE players only, also PVE players are getting Challenge mode that it will be a really good option for hardcores PVE players

[Alilei32]

Not a single person has offered suggestions to help make raiding better. Everyone just wants to point out that Im wrong without saying why. I understand that at the start of an expansion theres more than 1 raid but you cant argue that after the first patch there isnt less content because there is LESS content. How can people even argue that raiding is not becoming less and less a part of the game? The facts are there I listed them. So they added LFR thats great. Its bosses that have no mechanics what so ever and its basically free loot, hell the 346 heroics that launched with Cata are were harder than LFR. But they arent giving us as much content compared to what we used to have, which is a FACT. Are people just in Denial or just bad at math. Here let me help you out.

Tier 4: Kara, Mags, Gruul
Tier 4.5: ZA
Tier 5: SSC, TK
Tier 6: Hyjal, BT, Sunwell

Tier 11: BoT, Tot4W, BWD (OK 3 raids there we go)
Tier 12: Firelands
Tier 13: Dragon Soul

So WTF happened from tier 11 where everything was fun and I had something to do 3 nights a week to tier 12/13 where we only get one raid.

[Deleted]

I agree with this. I would say it's opposite of what OP is saying. Blizzard is trying to get more people into raiding (for better or worse).

I agree with this, I think they're trying to move towards raiding to a fault, it was the major problem with cata on release - all there was to do was raid and heroics, which were tuned too high for bad players - there was nothing else to do, which is wrong. The casual and / or bad playerbase need options too - LFR was the start of it, pet battles and scenarios are adding to it - which is great.

Blizzard trying to make raiding "THE" endgame content just leads to problems, they needed more variety - bets thing they have going for MOP is it brings that variety.

You can also adjust difficulty all by yourself. Raid with lower gear, messed up class set up, raid naked ffs.

This I don't agree with though, it runs completely against the raiders mindset. Years of raiding teaches you to run everything as optimally as possible, telling people to play the raid using only demonology warlocks that only use shadowbolt to make the raid "harder"... really? And the elitist bastards telling casuals to improve their play get called out...

Just have the different difficulty settings, LFR is trivial, make normal easier if you really insist - keep heroics hard, if you can't do them then improve your play, don't tell the people they're made for to purposefully play bad to get some false sense of difficulty out of them.

Edit: And T14 has 3 raids in it, problem fixed - right? Stop whining. I liked multiple raids per tier but it makes no difference, the issue is the amount of bosses in said tier - FL and DS were mediocre at best because they had a tiny amount of bosses, T11 would have been great if all of it's bosses were packed into one huge instance - it's not the number of "raids" that matter, it's the number of encounters.

Would you still have loved T11 if it was 3 raids with 2-3 bosses in each?

[Justignoreme]

There's a lot of blue post regarding the BC raid model and why it didn't work except for the select few.

the funny thing is, if they implemented it again all these people would start complaining about "being forced" to get "meaningless rep from grinds" to get keys to heroic dungeons they need to run to complete quests to unlock other keys to other heroic dungeons, to complete quests which unlock a tiered set of dungeons you need to run on reg first, then set to heroic and run again before getting the raid key for the first raid. And all of this only had one quest item per person, so if 3 others needed it you took a number.