The most important quote elitist raiders need to hear..

[SteakAndAlePie]

Blizzard said they won't have another Will of Unbinding in Pandaria (as in an LFR item better than all other trinkets other than itself in other versions). That said I am pretty confindent.

But for the vast majority of raiders running LFR was not a choice. Well, it was a choice compareable to enchanting your gear. You can CHOOSE not to enchant your gear (maybe for financial reasons), but people will notice and judge you.

[Deleted]

I guess the best solution is, that LFR should just be as good as last tiers normal gear so "real" raiders don't have to bother with LFR in subsequent tiers. In the first tier maybe make gear slightly better than 5 hc gear, so it still is an upgrade but not such a big one, that serious raiders might care about it.

[alba007]

As if quality means nothing...

[thedingleberry]

They claim it's just about seeing content, then they nerf the regular raids with a stacking debuff too...
Not really interested in them justifying LFR

If you care about a nerf on normal difficulty raids, you are not hardcore. If you care about a nerf on heroic difficulty raids, turn it off.

[ZeroEdgeir]

Raiders want challenge. Raiders also say that running LFR for the items is "mandatory" cause it gives them an edge... but at the same time removes the CHALLENGE of doing the content AT LEVEL (as in, at appropriate gear-level).

Do your raiding in the gear intended. Don't pad yourself with LFR and bitch about the loot making it "too easy". You CHOSE to do it. You wanna be cutting-edge progression, then you sacrifice anything and everything else to do things as efficiently as possible. You don't get both.

Additionally, you want challenge, and bragging rights? Earn your Heroic clears with no buffs in MoP. It's an OPTION with a FoS to boot! You've just been rewarded with something others will NOT get (because the challenge will likely be similar to Herald of the Titans: At level, in raid-appropriate gear, so it can't be over-leveled or over-geared).

Another thing... comparing content from 7 YEARS AGO, when we were all far worse players than today without question, to content of today, with all the skill and experience we have behind us now. Really? Are you gonna try that? Are you gonna claim you are just as good a gamer in terms of total skill now as you were 7 years ago? That you haven't improved at all? Come on already, get over yourself.

LFR only has the sheer volume of people in it because of loot. Hell, what did Blizzard do to help get more tanks and healers into queues? Put a lootbag up for them when the queues become too long. Majority of players will only do something if it offers a reward that is equal to the time invested in it (in their mind).

[Markle]

Just make LFR share a lockout with normal / heroic raids.

Casual LFR players can experience raids in a PUG group, more organized groups have normal and heroic modes and are not pressured into running LFR to max the possible amount of gear obtained.

everyone wins!

[shadowstep]

They claim it's just about seeing content, then they nerf the regular raids with a stacking debuff too...
Not really interested in them justifying LFR

You know that if the debuff bothers you that you can actually TURN OFF the debuff, right?

[Fenixdown]

Just make LFR share a lockout with normal / heroic raids.

Casual LFR players can experience raids in a PUG group, more organized groups have normal and heroic modes and are not pressured into running LFR to max the possible amount of gear obtained.

everyone wins!

Except for the people that actually want to do LFR AND raid a regular raiding schedule every week.

Don't force your ideals onto eveyrone else with things to keep them from doing stuff because it's not the way you want to do it. If you don't want to do LFR, there's a wonderful option called...don't do it. It relaly IS that simple. YOU DO NOT NEED LFR GEAR FOR PROGRESSION! IF YOU NEED IT, IT MEANS YOU ARE BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!

[Spotnick]

Are we really having a discussion about people getting gear in LFR that is barely better than dungeon loot?

Really?

Why do YOU care? you could BUY the set bonus before with valor points anyways. Might as well remove valor gear and craftables, they are better than what drops in LFR and you do no effort, and you can buy heroic raid gear at the black market auction house !!!

/panic

[cyqu]

Except for the people that actually want to do LFR AND raid a regular raiding schedule every week.

Don't force your ideals onto eveyrone else with things to keep them from doing stuff because it's not the way you want to do it. If you don't want to do LFR, there's a wonderful option called...don't do it. It relaly IS that simple. YOU DO NOT NEED LFR GEAR FOR PROGRESSION! IF YOU NEED IT, IT MEANS YOU ARE BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!

I guess everyone playing this game is bad then, since its quite obvious to any bad raider that if there is an upgrade from lfr then you need it.

[Markle]

Except for the people that actually want to do LFR AND raid a regular raiding schedule every week.

Don't force your ideals onto eveyrone else with things to keep them from doing stuff because it's not the way you want to do it. If you don't want to do LFR, there's a wonderful option called...don't do it. It relaly IS that simple. YOU DO NOT NEED LFR GEAR FOR PROGRESSION! IF YOU NEED IT, IT MEANS YOU ARE BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!

If you like running LFR every week along with a normal or heroic raid that your prerogative....nothing against that, and to be fair i really wouldn't want that option to be taken away from ppl that enjoy running both.

I was just suggesting a solution that would alleviate the pressure to maximize gear by running LFR some raiders feel. According to many on this forum some people feel like farming LFR is required to maximize their potential when making progression kills. An upgrade is an upgrade regardless of whether or not it is a small upgrade.

I agree with your point that LFR gear is not required for normal/heroic kills however we did see a lot of abuse of the LFR system in top end raiding guild to get world first kills. I imagine if it shared a lockout normal/heroic not a single high end raider would have touched it.

[Oxyra]

You know that if the debuff bothers you that you can actually TURN OFF the debuff, right?

Too bad you can't turn off the nerfs to the fights such as all of FL being nerfed by ~20%. Rag being nerfed by a removal of a mechanic. Then by another 15% HP or so.
Spine being nerfed with the release of the 5% debuff.

The problem is not the % debuff.
The problem is the nerfs they throw on top for pointless reasons.

[Prag]

This thread and the others like it would lead one to believe that hardcore care about LFR or normals pre- or post-nerf. That is so far from the truth and there are so many people who have lost sight of the hardcore definition....

LFR has no impact - negative or positive - on the hardcore community. Stop looking for ways to exclude other players.

[Ciah]

LFR has no impact - negative or positive - on the hardcore community. Stop looking for ways to exclude other players.

So being required to farm it endlessly for gear in order to remain competitive and having LFR mode spoil the fun of the "real" modes because you've seen the fights like 20 times before the second week isn't a negative.

Got it.

[Prag]

So being required to farm it endlessly for gear in order to remain competitive and having LFR mode spoil the fun of the "real" modes because you've seen the fights like 20 times before the second week isn't a negative.

Got it.

Stop romanticizing this. Bosses are boring after 6 or so hours of wiping. Your point is moot.

[KCguy]

Most people don't hate LFR, it's that DS was disappointing and that's all you can base it off of. But the Mists raids are supposed to be amazing and LFR is supposed to be a lot more challenging. Combine that with a great loot system, I don't think there will be very much whining this time around.

[Deleted]

I am bored of arguing about LFR.
I think it could be changed to make it better for everyone. Some people just bitch and want to keep it exactly how it is. "WatT WE do dosn't affect u!"
etc

As for this, I do understand what he is saying.

However, he says 1000s of people seen KT, and that that isn't enough.
I agree.
Yet I really want to know how many people seen the Lich King
That is a fairer comparison in my mind, and how many people WOULD have seen Deathwing had LFR not been implemented.

[MoanaLisa]

You have the option but if you play competitively, you don't want to turn it off.

Honest question though. By the time the raids are modified to be easier with optional buffs/nerfs, isn't the competition mostly over? I get it that there are servers where the raiding is less than stellar but is that what we're really talking about when we talk about 'competitive guilds'?

[dokilar]

if i recall correctly i rememberthem stating a few months, heck it might even be a few years, that quantity doesnt equal quality. and this was from a dev, not a cm.

that being said i think its great that millions of people who otherwise couldnt see end game content to be able to see it. time will tell if they hold true to their word. if they can produce a mass quantity of bosses per tier and still manage to have good quality then i will be impressed, until then ill remain a tad skepitcal

[Deleted]

I think LFR was the best thing added to the game since Ulduar.

I'd be happy if they'd just stop nerfing heroics, or at least slow the nerfs down. Alternatively, add challenge mode raiding or a reward for the 0-nerf FOSs.

It just feels like the rewards for raiding at a high level keep diminishing, it sank from exclusivity, to getting things sooner - but that time frame for "sooner" keeps shrinking, the tier isn't even over before your cosmetic "status symbols" are no longer particularly symbolic.

I'm fine with them opening modes up, think LFR is great etc, but it'd be nice if something remained permanently hard, either via T11s approach of only nerfing normals, only nerfing heroics after the tier is over or offering a reward for doing the content at its hardest via FOS / adding a challenge mode.