Kuni's Frost Mage PVE Guide

[Deleted]

aren't NT better regardless, due to the lots of ticks you get (extra BF procs) compared to LB in any scenario? Especially now in 5.4 with the new set bonuses.

[Deleted]

Each tick of NT has a lesser chance to proc BF than a tick of LB.
Overall u get roughly the same procs regardless of the bomb.
If u calculate exact NT is a little bit ahead in count of procs.
The question is now: Are these 1 or 2 procs extra more dmg than the dmg LB does baseline more than NT. This is atm the real question and it seems like we have no right answer now.

[Deleted]

Want a glyph to change my water elemental into this
http://media.mmo-champion.com/images...mentalBoss.jpg

I still prefer the cute pandaren water spirit but this one is very good. more "bad"

[Deleted]

Each tick of NT has a lesser chance to proc BF than a tick of LB.
Overall u get roughly the same procs regardless of the bomb.
If u calculate exact NT is a little bit ahead in count of procs.
The question is now: Are these 1 or 2 procs extra more dmg than the dmg LB does baseline more than NT. This is atm the real question and it seems like we have no right answer now.

I don't see the logic in this one. With more haste you get more ticks on NT; thus more BF procs. The percentage gain of BF per tick remains the same. With LB, all you get is more explosion damage, but you don't get more ticks.

This is just an example:
Let's say with no haste, NT ticks 12 times and you have a 13% chance of getting a BF proc per tick.
Now let's add 50% haste and say your NT ticks 25 times and you still have 13% chance of getting a bf proc per tick; doesn't that mean you'll be fcking raining in BF procs at that point?

[Deleted]

With LB, all you get is more explosion damage, but you don't get more ticks.

Thats the fault in your thinking. LB also gets more Ticks with enough haste. So its equal again.

[Deleted]

to be exact :
NT -- 9% chance to proc BF per tick
LB -- 25% chance to proc BF per tick.
FB -- 100% per explosion.

Globally, they're very close from each other. They scale the same with haste but NT is a little ahead.
For making them equal, NT would have a 8.33% proc rate

[Hasufer]

Also, U should theoritically "waste" more procs on NT than LB due the frequency of ticks. E.g meta proc NT on something like 23 ticks, means close to a tick pr 0.5 sec = u can never use all procs if they chain proc, which they tend to do rather often, my experience tells me through 5.3 (even before 5.3)
Lately Iv'e been having very positive results with LB over NT, on all but multitarget fights like Horridon where u can keep 5 nt's or so up, for full duration and cleaves On single target it seems a decent dps increase to go with LB over NT - also be aware that u react and play, accordingly to trinkets/mets etc.
Example: Refresh LB on 11-12 sec of Woos (if trinket available) and again, the sec it expires - same with Cha'Ye - u can insta apply it on proc, and again the sec it expires, wasting a gcd, for 22 seconds of OP LB/NT. Really mastering your bomb(s) will give u an advantage over players who just reapply it always at the last tick, at least that's my experience currently This ofc goes for Nt and LB ^^
And if u think about it, it makes good sence - I play more according to practice and sheer logic, rather that deep-analysing every aspect to maximize that way.
did 229k on Twins today with lb, while really keeping eye and monitoring procs. In 534 Ilvl, I believe it's fairly decent for an almost all out single target nuke fight on 6-7min as frost
( http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-4tjfhw62aknm6blx/ ) I know it's lfr, and still, Twins don't differ much in 10man hm/norm/25man/25man hm - bit more dmg on heroic due to cleave and adds, and I use NT on that mode, normally^^

I'm only giving you my personal advice, been having loads of 1th places in 10man hm's/nm's since 5.3 started. Ive gathered lots of data from the mmo forums through this tier, which has been very helpful, and I'm currently toying with those, as well as personal experience, to optimise I'm not trying to preach anything, but take my advice if u like - others may have other opinions than me, which is ofc totally fine

[pyrostorm9001]

So looking at the frost aspect of the T16 4P I would HOPE it's effected by Mastery.
If so this could be quite good, stacking Haste to max FFbolt procs > IL procs with Mastery to boost their numbers.
I have no concerns over scaling if this is the case. Yes it means wasted haste on Frostbolt casts, but then Frostbolt is just filler at this point.

[Mastamage]

So looking at the frost aspect of the T16 4P I would HOPE it's effected by Mastery.
If so this could be quite good, stacking Haste to max FFbolt procs > IL procs with Mastery to boost their numbers.
I have no concerns over scaling if this is the case. Yes it means wasted haste on Frostbolt casts, but then Frostbolt is just filler at this point.

I'm more concerned with the Frost 2-set. 100% IL proc from comsumed BF? Come on, we already don't have an issue doing that as it stands now. Just another useless set bonus I'll forget that I even have. 4-set is meh. Sure, if the boulder works with mastery, then we'll still be where we are now....Crit to 23%, haste to 50%+, then stack mastery. Not really fixing our main issues.

[Frost1129]

I'm more concerned with the Frost 2-set. 100% IL proc from comsumed BF? Come on, we already don't have an issue doing that as it stands now. Just another useless set bonus I'll forget that I even have. 4-set is meh. Sure, if the boulder works with mastery, then we'll still be where we are now....Crit to 23%, haste to 50%+, then stack mastery. Not really fixing our main issues.

I did some really simple math in the 5.4 thread, but the 2pc (at least from the logs I looked through on my fights) was giving ~70% increase in the number of FoF procs I would have gotten. That's pretty significant, and make an even greater portion of our damage come from a source which is modified by mastery.

[pyrostorm9001]

I'm more concerned with the Frost 2-set. 100% IL proc from comsumed BF? Come on, we already don't have an issue doing that as it stands now. Just another useless set bonus I'll forget that I even have. 4-set is meh. Sure, if the boulder works with mastery, then we'll still be where we are now....Crit to 23%, haste to 50%+, then stack mastery. Not really fixing our main issues.

Not sure about that. With more haste on LB/NT i see myself casting Fb less and FFbolt more (via BF procs) in turn casting IL after FFbolt. This means Fb will be cast less (more so just to keep up the debuff) and therefore less FoF procs from Fb.

From this perspective i see no problem with our scaling. Looking at it as wasted stats JUST on Fb is silly as you wont cast it as much.

Perhaps im assuming too much but im confident we will be fine with the 2 and 4p

[Kuni Zyrekai]

I don't see the 2p staying. They do tend to try and stay away from overly clunky mechanics, and this would require us to dump all FoF charges in case the FFB procs the normal FoF on top of the 2p one. We'll see, but I doubt it'll stay the same, even if they just cut the normal chance on FFB for it.

[pyrostorm9001]

I don't see the 2p staying. They do tend to try and stay away from overly clunky mechanics, and this would require us to dump all FoF charges in case the FFB procs the normal FoF on top of the 2p one. We'll see, but I doubt it'll stay the same, even if they just cut the normal chance on FFB for it.

You say that like spamming IL under FoF procs is a bad thing. I currently have 47.71% haste raid buffed without meta or lust currently and when i get strings of procs firing them off like a machine gun im having the most fun i have ever had. if more haste + 2p means more procs and more IL spam im going to have the time of my life.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

I'm only saying it sounds a bit clunky, and I don't personally see it staying as is.

[Deleted]

The real clunkyness of Frost comes from the downright stupid mechanic of the Frostbolt-Debuff. I have no problem at all with spamming IL, reacting to BF-proccs. The 2pc, if anything, seems like a great tool for more control over our mobility and adds some value to mastery - those are GOOD things. Worst case really is that I sometimes lose a FoF-procc, which really isn't that big of a deal anymore. What IS stupid is that we have a mechanic that I don't see having any paralell in other classes.

Now don't get me wrong, ramp-up times make some sense. I know other classes have them. What they don't have is a mechanic that requires them to use their least desireable spell constantly to keep up a highly artifical debuff that was only really designed for PvP. Why exactly should it make sense for Frost to be bad at target switching? I was killing adds on Primordius HC recently, and the number of Frostbolts I used on Primordius bordered on 0 for most of the fight. Thats flat 15% damage less done by my elemental, hooray.
If the frostbolt-debuff was something we stacked on ourselves (like say, shadowpriests have their orbs) it would make marginally more sense. Again: Ramp-up is ok. It's artifical, but I guess it helps out with balancing PvP. But making me want to claw my eyes out whenever I have Frozen Orb ready but not debuffed the enemy yet (oh, hi there Megaera!) is just insane.

Frostbolt needs a change. Desperately. Look at what they did to Elemental Shamans when they started completely overcapping haste on all of their spells. Well, it's our turn. Granted, we only really have one spell we cast, but that one needs a fix.

[Deleted]

GC have say it's only the start of a long PTR. We know they test a lot of things and actually it's more to see how it's used and how community react to it.

Like Kuni, I think the 2p can change, they can also modify how Brain Freeze or they can modify both. Until they change how BF proc, Haste will be predominant has it increase the number of proc, more than the gain from Mastery.

On the 4p, it's interesting because it add a short AOE to FFB. I don't think it will be directly on Mastery as it's a proc effect and not a spell.
Is this one going to change too ?
Can it be a test for a new spell in 6.0 ?

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On FB's debuff, I'm really mitigate around it.
Advantage -- add gameplay diversity
Disavantage -- reduce the "nervousness" of the spec, feel bad on target switching and problem on pvp boss (barrens).
My opinion is that they can keep the debuff but reduce it to only 1 stack (for 10%). It still force to cast FB on pvp but reduce the ramp-up effect and the switching target impact.
Another idea could be to change it from damage to crit chance or crit damage. 5% Crit chance to reduce Shatter cap to 23%. 5% crit damage will be penalizing if not crit capped.

[edit] and make it an shadow orb like mechanics too (good idea).

---------- Post added 2013-06-14 at 11:09 AM ----------

Oh, and we already capping all our spell. Waterbolt cap at 150%, it value that we obtain a lot now with Sinister meta gem.

[Deleted]

Stupid idea. What is when the 2p dont generate one additional IL. It just increases the Chance of BF for a IL-proc from 15 to 100%.

[Deleted]

Stupid idea. What is when the 2p dont generate one additional IL. It just increases the Chance of BF for a IL-proc from 15 to 100%.

That is just completely wrong. The charge of FoF is generated (at least as the wording of the bonus goes right now) at the consumption of BF, not at the landing of the spell. Meaning you get a 100%-charge, and then a 15% chance afterwards. Unless you're usually sitting on FoF-proccs, you're not gonna see much overwriting of them at all. And even if you occasionally overwrite some FoF-proccs, its still an enormously good bonus: Every time you get a BF-procc, you can with 100% certainty spend 2 GCDs moving, more if you have 1 charge stacked up.

I have really no idea how it came to pass that people started hating on this setbonus so much. Its free additional damage and mobility guys, stop hating! Of course there are underlying problems of haste and scaling, but they have nothing to do with the bonus.

[Deleted]

That is just completely wrong. The charge of FoF is generated (at least as the wording of the bonus goes right now) at the consumption of BF, not at the landing of the spell. Meaning you get a 100%-charge, and then a 15% chance afterwards. Unless you're usually sitting on FoF-proccs, you're not gonna see much overwriting of them at all. And even if you occasionally overwrite some FoF-proccs, its still an enormously good bonus: Every time you get a BF-procc, you can with 100% certainty spend 2 GCDs moving, more if you have 1 charge stacked up.

I have really no idea how it came to pass that people started hating on this setbonus so much. Its free additional damage and mobility guys, stop hating! Of course there are underlying problems of haste and scaling, but they have nothing to do with the bonus.

really true.
100 Brain freeze will result in 100 FFB + 100 IL + 15 IL from FFB. The great question : when did we cast Frostbolt to refresh the debuff ??

[Deleted]

really true.
100 Brain freeze will result in 100 FFB + 100 IL + 15 IL from FFB. The great question : when did we cast Frostbolt to refresh the debuff ??

Every 15 seconds.