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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrodroki View Post
    Can you post a link to the source plz ?

    But i pretty much agree with most of what's being said there. And there is a simple solution :

    -Delete Slice and Dice
    -Rebalance damage from that point

    PvP and PvE problems solved.
    Interestingly enough; Every rogue I've come across seems to agree. Slice and Dice is one of the major keys to our problems, and it should be dealt with, one way or another.

    Another problem, I'd say, is the way poison application is currently designed. Deadly Poisons is, by design, just an extension of our auto attacks. Nothing more, nothing less. The Deadly Dot is entirely secondary and its purpose rather unclear. Poisons, as a whole, could be removed entirely, while our auto attacks could be buffed to compensate for the loss, and no one would really notice the change.

    - Deal with Slice and Dice; Remove it from all specs but Combat, or remove it entirely, and re-balance dps from there.
    - Either make poisons ACTIVE sources of damage, or just roll them into auto attacks. As of now, they're closer to novelty than an actual mechanic.
    - Energy regeneration needs to be more consistent; Having pathetic energy regeneration early on, and endless generation late in the game makes for an unenjoyable gameplay experience.

    If these issues would be addressed somehow, our class would instantly becomes more skill dependent AND less gear dependent.

  2. #82
    Slince and Dice is the source of everything:
    - the best and mandatory buff we have to manage
    - a lot of pure attack speed (which meance more autoattacks and various procs)

    Its removal would make things an hell initially, but way better on the long run since the lost damage on autoattack/poisons would be dealt in other ways. Ideas/examples:
    - rogue baseline energy regen normalized and passively buffed; no more spec based talents for it. We don't need to have 3 differenmt ways of regen energy whin it's clear that the base regen isn't enough to play the class.
    - make poisons exclusive for Assassination; DP could be easily a combo move which applies the dot and needs to be refreshed (a sort of poison hemo); VW could be baked into DP ticks instead of Rupture ticks; Envenom can stay like it is now, and also mutilate+dispatch+blindside are not a bad mechanic.
    - make Sub the "bleeding spec", with rupture being sub-only and basically being the same as now, without energetic recovery; shadow dance is an incredibly fun and string tool, it could be reworked and made even better.
    - make combat ruptureless but adding depth to the rotation with "combo moves": every SS you do you gain a stack of "dontknowhowtocallthebuff" and when you reach 3, you can use "dontknowhowtocallthisSSonsteroids" for additional damage - RvS is cool, but not that much and could use a rework too.
    Why worry about the future when you can just asfatatotl.

  3. #83
    i think its sad, that there are so many good, constructive ideas coming from the community and nothing changes. i have no idea, why experienced developers are not able to find solutions like this.

  4. #84
    Because the class developers are lazy and rather than spend effort and money fixing the classes the would rather tell everyone their class is fine and do whatever they please and keep their money.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Rory View Post
    Rogues are fine, there is a huge difference between a good rogue and an average one. People always seem to forget that rogues are possibly the most gear dependent class in the game. We scale amazingly. So every expansion I see "boo hoo, I'm a terrible player and if my class isn't OP I suck" and then a patch or two later everyone thinks we are OP again even though nothing changed.

    It happens for most classes but rogues are especially big crybabies. I've been a rogue main since TBC even though I had to play spriest for a while because my guild needed it. I have never, since the middle of BC (when I hit max level on rogue the first time) thought the class was broken in a bad way. PVP was stupid for a while, particulalrly when 3.0 hit prior to wrath but PVP has been horribly unbalanced since the end of s3

    TLDR: get better or reroll until a later patch.
    They dumbed Rogues down to the point of there actually being -very little- difference between a good and a bad one.
    Warriors are also very dependent on gear; yet they seem to be doing dam-fine in PvE when compared to middle-line Rogues.

    It's a numbers problem that will continue to scale. Rogues are -not- fine, are bland, and will continue to be so unless Blizzard admits they were wrong.

  6. #86
    Herald of the Titans Kael's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Removing SnD entirely is definitely the first step to making each spec feel different and re-distributing our damage in a way that makes the class more fun to play. As Incineration says, it fits fine for combat which has always relied largely on auto-attacks and had an advantage with SnD duration going back a long ways, but it's really out of place that subtlety and assassination have a primary focus on our obvious and predictable attacks having an increased frequency and we need it to stop.

    I can't entirely agree that we'd be less gear dependent; since everything we do is either auto-attack or weapon-damage-scaling, it's inevitable that as our weapons scale our damage scales nearly exponentially (haste for more abilities/AA * MG procs for more energy strikes * crit damage increased chance * MUCH higher base damage on everything)... but maybe I could actually feel the difference between when I'm paying attention and watching TV, beyond missing lining up my trinket with KS->AR/SB.
    Last edited by Kael; 2012-10-14 at 08:57 PM.

  7. #87
    GC just said that "haste will fix it" about energy starvation.

    I'm starting to be very annoyed. So we have to fix 15-16 months to start seeing a normal energy flow? How is this good design?

  8. #88
    i remember rogue started to feel good in T13.

    So just wait for t16 guys everything will be fine - rogue is fine !

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by ripslyme View Post
    i remember rogue started to feel good in T13.

    So just wait for t16 guys everything will be fine - rogue is fine !
    We reached a state where scaling granted us so much power, we could overlook most of our faults and still reign supreme. Doesn't mean the problems weren't there.
    - Bandit's Guile was shit, and still is but to a lesser degree.
    - Deadly Stacks were shit.
    - AOE was shit, and is still a bit clunky.
    - Energy regeneration was becoming shit, because we gained more than we could turn into damage, effectively turning it into a non-resource.
    - Rotations were shit, and still are to a degree, due to indefensible requirements.
    - Rotations were inefficient, and still are to a degree. The fact the people are even thinking of having "Shuriken Toss" as their main CP builder is a testament to that.
    - Our primary and secondary resources were/are still being used for questionable things. Why finishers double dip on resources is beyond me...
    I've probably forgotten quite a lot of things, but that's what comes to mind for now. Getting our asses carried by scaling isn't "fine". The class has some serious issues that need to be addressed, preferably before 5.3, where things are likely to get out of hand again.

    I want to carry my class, not have my class carry me, thank you.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-15 at 12:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    Might have been unclear, sorry
    My third complaint about the current resource system, is the fact that energy regeneration is so heavily tied to haste, resulting in either A, WAY too low energy generation, or B, WAY too much energy generation. By normalizing energy regeneration, and making it more consistent (both at low and high gear levels) our output would become much less dependent on haste levels, thereby making energy a non-issue. Thus, we'd be less dependent on gear, at least in terms of energy. Our raw damage would probably still be lacking, as you point out, but let's just tackle one problem at a time... :P

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