[Megathread] Star Citizen

[Majestic12]

Star Citizen is P2W in the sense that the more real life cash you fork out, the higher your mechanical advantage is. We see these type of games all the time, especially on the asian market where they're popular. The only difference between SC and those games is that once SC "launches", they are supposed to stop the ship sales. You need to draw a line somewhere, though. CIG has sold ships for all of its development cycle so far and it's far from over. I'd say you can expect 3 or 4 years of ship sales, anniversary sales and what not. If SC has been selling ships for 5-9 years, I think it without a doubt falls into the same category of those games.

A lot of SC fans make the same argument that Odeezee is trying to do here:

PTW in a game like SC is a conversation that should be had in context. there is no "WINNING" in the traditional sense of winning; getting the biggest ship =/= you win and seeing as the game has many roles, some non-combat in nature how would you characterize winning then if you are an explorer? how does having more money = you get more places to explore? what about if you are a medic? or a bounty hunter? or an engineer? a turret gunner? a commercial space pilot? having the biggest most decked out fighter spaceship won't help you with cargo hauling. and if people try and argue "well if you are cargo hauling then you could just get the biggest cargo hauler and get the most moneiesssss", well you are going to need a lot of friends or have to pay for crew members, then there are larger fuel costs, larger fighter escort costs, greater maintenance overhead, etc associated with larger vessels, so when exactly does the "winning" begin?

But it doesn't hold up at the end of the day. A lot of citizens seem to believe that P2W has to exclusively be that you win a game of League of Legends or Counter Strike and get a big "YOU WIN!" message on the screen. That is and was never the case with P2W games. For the sake of Star Citizen, if you use your wallet continously you will:

- Have a mechanical advantage at launch in combat.
- Have a massive advantage in exploration due to advanced ships.
- Have the possibility to buy credits to man/fuel your big ships.
- You bypassed the game mechanics with regards to rare ship availability entirely.
- You in many cases bypass the insurance system completely with LTI.

The fact is that unless you forked out cash for Star Citizen you will:
- Be unable to compete in combat at launch(everybody else will beat you in PvP).
- Be unable to compete in exploration(everybody else will beat you to finding new things).
- Be unable to acquire certain ships due to rarity and game systems that work with this in the market.

I could be a worse pilot than Odeezee any day but absolutely crush him in his Aurora just because I bought a Super Hornet for real cash(which I actually did).
I can field my Orion with NPC crew on day 1(using bought credits) and start flooding the market and crushing any competition.
How is this not winning? Scenarios like that is precisely what will happen in Star Citizen and precisely why it is pay to win. Player to player competition is a thing in Star Citizen and if a paying citizen can bypass game systems entirely, then yes it is pay to win.

[Post]

Yup..... it makes gambling on races in game much easier since you can watch the race live instead of having to switch back and forth from someone that might be streaming it on Twitch and the bookies.

How do you not see that as something that should be worked on after the game is launched after all this time? Did it start with a feature list suggesting you could watch races via a stream to gamble on? That's the most clear example of feature bloat I think I've ever seen.

[KyrtF]

How do you not see that as something that should be worked on after the game is launched after all this time? Did it start with a feature list suggesting you could watch races via a stream to gamble on? That's the most clear example of feature bloat I think I've ever seen.

It really depends on how much work and effort goes into it.

If it were major, then yes - it's not something that should be done. If it were to causes major issues with bandwidth or performance, then it should not be done.

Conversely, if it were just a few tweaks, then there's no real harm in it.

HOWEVER....depending on how CIG handle several factors, it seems likely that there would be performance/bandwidth issues since you are essentially taking a second viewpoint and putting it on screen. Maybe CIG can optimise it...I hope so. I think the issue here is that CIG so often these days seem to be delivering stuff not which is needed for the game, but which delivers the greatest hype and marketing impact. I might like the feature in game, but speaking as someone who wants to play the game - I want the game and not something which, while it might be a cool toy for a week or so, means nothing without the game.

[Post]

I think the issue here is that CIG so often these days seem to be delivering stuff not which is needed for the game, but which delivers the greatest hype and marketing impact. I might like the feature in game, but speaking as someone who wants to play the game - I want the game and not something which, while it might be a cool toy for a week or so, means nothing without the game.

That's exactly what I'm saying. I'm sure Star Citizen fans wouldn't mind not having that feature in if it means they can play the game sooner.

[Odeezee]

so CR says he wants immersion and this tech allows for unmatched immersion yet you guys claim it's unnecessary and could wait until after release???? O.o. huh? what? why??!!! that's literally the primary goal of the game, to be an IMMERSIVE first-person universe experience. backers who bothered to read what the mission statement was will totally want these sorts of things in the game prior to release, i can't believe i have to keep typing this out but some people obviously don't get it, but it's the ENTIRE REASON FOR GOING WITH CROWD-FUNDING, so they can actually take the time they need to get it right and not just fast. and why would backers care when the final release is done when they can test/play the alpha test bed, right now? and with 3.0 on the way the experience is only going to get much more richer with the new tech, locations, mechanics, professions, interactions and ships. seriously, these types of things ARE what backers want from this game (otherwise why back something that specifically stated that that was their intent in the outset) and most importantly what CR wants in his game.

[Edge-]

so CR says he wants immersion and this tech allows for unmatched immersion yet you guys claim it's unnecessary and could wait until after release???? O.o. huh? what? why??!!! that's literally the primary goal of the game, to be an IMMERSIVE first-person universe experience.

Because watching other people livestream isn't part of the core game experience. It's a great feature to add after launch, but why are they spending time putting it in now when they have so much other work to do just to get the basic foundation for the game complete?

I mean, if you're going to take that view, this game will never release because they'll be working on a million trivial "immersive" elements that they'll never actually be able to finish before they run out of money.

backers who bothered to read what the mission statement was will totally want these sorts of things in the game prior to release,

Did you poll them?

i can't believe i have to keep typing this out but some people obviously don't get it, but it's the ENTIRE REASON FOR GOING WITH CROWD-FUNDING,

Did CIG poll their backers to see if they thought that integrated, in-game stream viewing was a priority that folks wanted in the game before launch? If they did and that's what folks said, I'm happy to back off on my criticisms a bit, but I'd find that pretty surprising.

so they can actually take the time they need to get it right and not just fast.

There's a fine line between waiting until your game is "ready" before launching, and letting feature-creep push your games release back to eternity.

and why would backers care when the final release is done when they can test/play the alpha test bed, right now? and with 3.0 on the way the experience is only going to get much more richer with the new tech, locations, mechanics, professions, interactions and ships. seriously, these types of things ARE what backers want from this game (otherwise why back something that specifically stated that that was their intent in the outset) and most importantly what CR wants in his game.

I'd think they'd want the base game with all intended features finished and delivered before these "fun" bits get added in, but that's just how I've viewed the projects I crowdfunded. I love this kinda stuff, but after the devs have delivered on their initial promises.

[masterhorus8]

Did CIG poll their backers to see if they thought that integrated, in-game stream viewing was a priority that folks wanted in the game before launch? If they did and that's what folks said, I'm happy to back off on my criticisms a bit, but I'd find that pretty surprising.

This bit does remind me from back when the stretch goals were up. How many of the stretch goals did people ACTUALLY want vs how many were just there as the game was getting funded...?

[1001]

Star Citizen is P2W in the sense that the more real life cash you fork out, the higher your mechanical advantage is. We see these type of games all the time, especially on the asian market where they're popular. The only difference between SC and those games is that once SC "launches", they are supposed to stop the ship sales. You need to draw a line somewhere, though. CIG has sold ships for all of its development cycle so far and it's far from over. I'd say you can expect 3 or 4 years of ship sales, anniversary sales and what not. If SC has been selling ships for 5-9 years, I think it without a doubt falls into the same category of those games.

A lot of SC fans make the same argument that Odeezee is trying to do here:



But it doesn't hold up at the end of the day. A lot of citizens seem to believe that P2W has to exclusively be that you win a game of League of Legends or Counter Strike and get a big "YOU WIN!" message on the screen. That is and was never the case with P2W games. For the sake of Star Citizen, if you use your wallet continously you will:

- Have a mechanical advantage at launch in combat.
- Have a massive advantage in exploration due to advanced ships.
- Have the possibility to buy credits to man/fuel your big ships.
- You bypassed the game mechanics with regards to rare ship availability entirely.
- You in many cases bypass the insurance system completely with LTI.

The fact is that unless you forked out cash for Star Citizen you will:
- Be unable to compete in combat at launch(everybody else will beat you in PvP).
- Be unable to compete in exploration(everybody else will beat you to finding new things).
- Be unable to acquire certain ships due to rarity and game systems that work with this in the market.

I could be a worse pilot than Odeezee any day but absolutely crush him in his Aurora just because I bought a Super Hornet for real cash(which I actually did).
I can field my Orion with NPC crew on day 1(using bought credits) and start flooding the market and crushing any competition.
How is this not winning? Scenarios like that is precisely what will happen in Star Citizen and precisely why it is pay to win. Player to player competition is a thing in Star Citizen and if a paying citizen can bypass game systems entirely, then yes it is pay to win.

Nicely put.

CIG say that selling UEC will be their money maker after launch which leads to a couple of questions,
1/ Are they going to make earning UEC difficult so that you feel compelled to buy it? (This would add value to ships already sold, people would feel that their purchases have saved them a lot of time and it would also make those purchases more of a step up over someone who hasn't bought them.)

2/ If not, why would you buy UEC, what are you going to spend it on?

If you can earn it in the game nice and easily, what's the incentive to buy it? You wouldn't buy it out of pure generosity and I can't see them just banking on the idea that a bunch of wealthy 1990 wallet warriors who are too lazy to play the game despite spending thousands of dollars on it are going to keep them afloat with UEC purchases.
There has to be reasons to buy it and reasons to spend it so I wouldn't be surprised if there was a cash shop to buy stuff from, hopefully nothing like the awful P2W Voyager cash shop they already run.

[Tierbook]

Another bit of bloat that seems to be coming with 3.0 is breaching/boarding ships. The longer it takes, the more they add, the longer it takes ad infinitum at this point. Which i'm fine with personally.

[stellvia]

I think its fair to raise concerns now, but at the same time I would hold off on being majorly alarmed until we have a better feel for the actual game. People are building up fears that may be unfounded. IE: We have no idea how much UEC someone may be able to buy in relation to running expenses for hulls. And even if they gave some number, that could/will completely change once the complete test universe is available.

There are just too many unknowns to be worried about specifics or crucifying CIG over just yet IMHO.

CCP provides a means for buying ISK in EVE and it would be hard to argue that has ruined the game. Why would SC be any different? And from their intentions so far, it sounds like you'll be able to buy way less UEC than the basically unlimited ISK you can attain by selling PLEX.

[karumayu]

Because watching other people livestream isn't part of the core game experience. It's a great feature to add after launch, but why are they spending time putting it in now when they have so much other work to do just to get the basic foundation for the game complete?

I mean, if you're going to take that view, this game will never release because they'll be working on a million trivial "immersive" elements that they'll never actually be able to finish before they run out of money.

I agree with this sentiment. The video game industry does not stand still as there are always some innovative technology or gameplay that is being released. The problem with the feature creep and continuously adding new ones is that once they have created a set amount of them, there will always be new technology and features that would have came into prominence with other games and it starts to give the impression that the game will never be finished.

[Rennadrel]

No one is starting the game live with the currency they have. IIRC, they already plan on not allowing cash for currency at the start of the game's live release to prevent pay to win from happening early. Everything gets reset after beta, and everyone starts anew with whatever the base currency is going to be. Meaning, you won't be able to fly your Constellation or a battle cruiser for quite some time. That's the only way you release a game from beta into a live release where you can pay cash for ingame currency.

[masterhorus8]

No one is starting the game live with the currency they have. IIRC, they already plan on not allowing cash for currency at the start of the game's live release to prevent pay to win from happening early. Everything gets reset after beta, and everyone starts anew with whatever the base currency is going to be. Meaning, you won't be able to fly your Constellation or a battle cruiser for quite some time. That's the only way you release a game from beta into a live release where you can pay cash for ingame currency.

The aUEC that's earned in-game at the moment is the only UEC getting wiped between patches. The UEC you can purchase with real money (current cap applies) and the bit that comes with some of the older packages will apply the moment the game goes live, unless you spend it in Voyager Direct, which at that point those guns and what else they add you will start with. This includes those warbonds that a lot of people were given back when CIG hit whatever milestone it was a few years back.

[Rennadrel]

The aUEC that's earned in-game at the moment is the only UEC getting wiped between patches. The UEC you can purchase with real money (current cap applies) and the bit that comes with some of the older packages will apply the moment the game goes live, unless you spend it in Voyager Direct, which at that point those guns and what else they add you will start with. This includes those warbonds that a lot of people were given back when CIG hit whatever milestone it was a few years back.

That seems kind of dumb then. Basically if you don't pay now, you are behind later. Should be a full wipe for at least a few months after launch, and then whatever credits people had in beta, could be refunded.

[masterhorus8]

That seems kind of dumb then. Basically if you don't pay now, you are behind later. Should be a full wipe for at least a few months after launch, and then whatever credits people had in beta, could be refunded.

The $->UEC now is supposedly going to be the same as launch. The same cap will exist. You can't earn normal UEC in game, only the aUEC (which is only a temporary test currency), so whether it's available now or not doesn't really matter.

The crux of the issue is that it'll be available for purchase later as their "main source" of income.

[KyrtF]

so CR says he wants immersion and this tech allows for unmatched immersion

Immersion is good....but first, I'd prefer the actual game and second, to say this is "unmatched" immersion is wildly pushing the hype train on an unimportant feature.
We don't need to see the view point of any other character or whatever. In game streaming isn't needed or necessary. Nor will it really help with "immersion".

It's nice to have so long as it doesn't take up too much worktime...but its also what appears to be a purely cosmetic feature that adds little to the game.

backers who bothered to read what the mission statement was will totally want these sorts of things in the game prior to release

Immersion is good. How ingame streaming will improve immersion escapes me.

and why would backers care when the final release is done when they can test/play the alpha test bed, right now?

Because putting it very bluntly - having people "play" the game right now is a VERY bad idea. People get bored and by having the game out now and be "playable", you end up sucking the life out of it. And when people hear about the problems with Alpha, they don't care that it's an Alpha - they simply hear "Star Citizen is buggy".

and with 3.0 on the way

Promised for release in 2016. Then June 2017. Then August 2017. Now release is September 2017.
CIGs lack of ability to keep to release dates is yet another problem

the experience is only going to get much more richer with the new tech, locations, mechanics, professions, interactions and ships. seriously, these types of things ARE what backers want from this game (otherwise why back something that specifically stated that that was their intent in the outset) and most importantly what CR wants in his game.

Chris Roberts initial plug was for a Wing Commander successor, which was to be released and then built upon with sequential releases. The same model Elite and NMS are following. He changed that to the model we have now, where we get incremental releases of an Alpha model that is taking absolute ages to release but where he gets money via sales of ships and pictures and we - are still waiting for a game. A game that was initially supposed to be released in 2014 but which now looks likely to launch in 2020 or 2021 at the earliest.

And if CR goes with his MVP option, will still be missing a whole lot of features that were promised. Not to mention the latest hints suggesting we won't be getting 100 fleshed out systems on launch. I am not one to fall for marketing hype...or fancy features...or shiny new toys.

You see ingame streaming as immersive. Good for you. I do not. I am left wondering how much bandwidth such features make use of, how much development time went into something that appears to be purely cosmetic, what practical use it will be in game, and why he is busy hyping up "RTT" technology as something new and wonderful when it has been around for years.

In short - I see this as something that CIG can hype up, but which is totally unnecessary for the game to work, or for there to be immersion. You sit there...in your ship...watching other people play the game, and it's "immersive" because you don't have to tab out? I would think the better question is what is wrong with the game that you would feel the need to tab out to watch someone else play while you are playing it.

[masterhorus8]

Immersion is good....but first, I'd prefer the actual game and second, to say this is "unmatched" immersion is wildly pushing the hype train on an unimportant feature.
We don't need to see the view point of any other character or whatever. In game streaming isn't needed or necessary. Nor will it really help with "immersion".

It's nice to have so long as it doesn't take up too much worktime...but its also what appears to be a purely cosmetic feature that adds little to the game.

To be fair, immersion is supposed to be one of the main selling points of this game. I do agree that this particular feature should wait until they get more of the networking cleaned up though.

Immersion is good. How ingame streaming will improve immersion escapes me.

Already answered a few posts ago.
"it makes gambling on races in game much easier since you can watch the race live instead of having to switch back and forth from someone that might be streaming it on Twitch and the bookies."

Because putting it very bluntly - having people "play" the game right now is a VERY bad idea. People get bored and by having the game out now and be "playable", you end up sucking the life out of it. And when people hear about the problems with Alpha, they don't care that it's an Alpha - they simply hear "Star Citizen is buggy".

That's the peoples' fault, not CIG. This was part of the entire point of doing the open development with playable alpha.

Promised for release in 2016. Then June 2017. Then August 2017. Now release is September 2017.
CIGs lack of ability to keep to release dates is yet another problem

No arguing with that.

Chris Roberts initial plug was for a Wing Commander successor, which was to be released and then built upon with sequential releases. The same model Elite and NMS are following. He changed that to the model we have now, where we get incremental releases of an Alpha model that is taking absolute ages to release but where he gets money via sales of ships and pictures and we - are still waiting for a game. A game that was initially supposed to be released in 2014 but which now looks likely to launch in 2020 or 2021 at the earliest.

The inital plug was/is for SQ42. And then the main stretch goal that people wanted was the open world MMO portion, aka Star Citizen. There was no "changing" it.

But just stop trying to bring up the 2014 release date, it's so disingenuous...that's been beaten to death so many times here, it's starting to smell.

And if CR goes with his MVP option, will still be missing a whole lot of features that were promised. Not to mention the latest hints suggesting we won't be getting 100 fleshed out systems on launch. I am not one to fall for marketing hype...or fancy features...or shiny new toys.

Here's some info about the "100 systems at launch". EG: "We don't want NMS planets. We want better."

You see ingame streaming as immersive. Good for you. I do not. I am left wondering how much bandwidth such features make use of, how much development time went into something that appears to be purely cosmetic, what practical use it will be in game, and why he is busy hyping up "RTT" technology as something new and wonderful when it has been around for years.

In short - I see this as something that CIG can hype up, but which is totally unnecessary for the game to work, or for there to be immersion. You sit there...in your ship...watching other people play the game, and it's "immersive" because you don't have to tab out? I would think the better question is what is wrong with the game that you would feel the need to tab out to watch someone else play while you are playing it.

See two of the answers above.

[Odeezee]

so much misinformation from you guys and just blatant lack of understanding. you tacitly voted for CR's vision of his immersive first-person experience when you backed his project, it's that simple. if you do not like it, you are not being forced to pledge. CR conducted 2 polls after the initial kickstarter that involved an immense increase in scope and scale of the game which then became games and when monetary milestones were reached, which stipulate what will be added if a milestone is reached, was again voting with your wallet.

the RTT tech will allow for real-time pc to npc as well as player-to-player video comms and a "media broadcasting" profession from being included in the game (see Reliant "Maco" variant) as scenes can be rendered to multiple view ports in real-time as well as character specific commercials and w/e else the CIG devs can cook up. the diegetic ui was not some feature creep for 3.0 as it already exists in the PU now, they are just building on it. and i could not care less if you find the tech interesting or impressive, all that matters is that it will be in the game for those who will make use of it. the game is not being made for you in case you did not know, it's CR's vision for the game he wants to play. we as backers are just supporting his vision and giving feedback to improve on that vision where appropriate, it's just that simple.

i really struggle to figure out why grown ass people need to be told such simple concepts. NONE of this is mandatory yet people get bent out of shape because the game is not out now, as though adding features inherently means that the game is somehow delayed. it's like people having issues with the art department producing content while the network department is still working on their stuff, it's called concurrency ffs. you agreed to let them take their time to get it right and in turn they said they will keep you posted on their progress. it's really that simple and again you do not have to like it or even accept it, but if you pledged you have to respect it because that's what was the relationship you chose to enter into.

[Edge-]

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen...date_20170811/

So...no more release windows at all? The new, seemingly arbitrary progression metric they're showing is bug fixes? Am I understanding this correct?

Did they just give up on trying to figure out production timelines or something? Because that's sure what it seems like : /

[masterhorus8]

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen...date_20170811/

So...no more release windows at all? The new, seemingly arbitrary progression metric they're showing is bug fixes? Am I understanding this correct?

Did they just give up on trying to figure out production timelines or something? Because that's sure what it seems like : /

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen...snt_feel_like/

https://www.diffchecker.com/PofJAGgw still exists.