[Megathread] Star Citizen

[quras]

Actually, the way they are doing things, imagine the clusterfuck which would be them trying to add expansion to a "finished" product? It would be hilarious and epic in all the wrong way :P

You know what? You are probably more right than most are willing to admit to.

[Odeezee]

Given the examples you provided, it is an "aberration".

then you do not understand the meaning of aberration. games go through many reworks, games go through many delays, they are just not publicized. they also have the advantage of having funds, devs, infrastructure and workflow at the outset. so yeah, it's pretty normal.

Optimism is one thing. This wasn't just "optimism" given how far off he was, and the fact that a part of what caused these delays was the increased scale and scope of SC that they intentionally decided to do. This was under their control, they chose to let it get out of hand for too long.

haha, so they were optimistic and hit some tech hurdles so they should be crucified even though the tech now allows them to give us the planet tech that is fully realized that we now enjoy? odd.

I'd still take option D given nearly every game company in the history of game companies that plans to expand their game does so in the manner of expansions and they do it quite nicely and have done so for years and years.

SC would have no more issues than any other game company in getting an expansion out nor have any more hurdles added on then vs the plethora of game companies that produce expansions and add to their existing code for new features as well as changing existing features.

Thats a lazy mans excuse to legitimize poor management.

i think you are (underestimating) overestimating* the capabilities of game devs and engines in released titles. that's why when devs try and introduce mechanics on the scale i am talking about they are relegated to sequels and not expansions.

game companies STRUGGLE to add content to the game of the magnitude that i am talking about here. let me give you an example, take WoW and make it an entire planet that you can traverse, add gameplay impacting weather, then change the combat system to action based combat, oh and improve the graphics to next gen levels, then add vehicle combat and allow players to own and operate airships with fully realized and interactive interiors and components, etc. now while those things may sound nice WoW cannot just include these things in an expansion and call it a day as you have to make sure the engine can even handle these things in the first place. this shit ain't easy, so you have to plan ahead, assuming you even want to eventually add these things, you code with it in mind from the BEGINNING. few games add more than just window dressing in expansions, they don't change how you fundamentally play the game and interact with the game world and other players, which is what E: D would be doing adding atmo planets, ship interiors, space legs and fps. remember they wanted to add these things from before release and it'll be 6 years this year. besides why would CIG want to do it the expansion route when crowdfunding allows them to do it they way they are doing it where they can get more feedback before wasting more time on something players don't want?

[1001]

game companies STRUGGLE to add content to the game of the magnitude that i am talking about here. let me give you an example, take WoW and make it an entire planet that you can traverse, add gameplay impacting weather, then change the combat system to action based combat, oh and improve the graphics to next gen levels, then add vehicle combat and allow players to own and operate airships with fully realized and interactive interiors and components, etc. now while those things may sound nice WoW cannot just include these things in an expansion and call it a day as you have to make sure the engine can even handle these things in the first place. this shit ain't easy, so you have to plan ahead, assuming you even want to eventually add these things, you code with it in mind from the BEGINNING. few games add more than just window dressing in expansions, they don't change how you fundamentally play the game and interact with the game world and other players, which is what E: D would be doing adding atmo planets, ship interiors, space legs and fps. remember they wanted to add these things from before release and it'll be 6 years this year. besides why would CIG want to do it the expansion route when crowdfunding allows them to do it they way they are doing it where they can get more feedback before wasting more time on something players don't want?

While there is truth to this it does not mean the inverse isn't true either.

Just look at how Star Citizen is repeatedly struggling to add planets, moons, stations etc, completely ignoring how the whole game is still stuck in just a single solar system (out of 100). They have had to undergo numerous technological overhauls to be able to add new locations to the game and be able to run it with acceptable performance. Despite spending millions they are still restricted to 50-60 people per server and by all accounts server framerates are still like 6FPS which causes all sorts of problems.

[Rennadrel]

While there is truth to this it does not mean the inverse isn't true either.

Just look at how Star Citizen is repeatedly struggling to add planets, moons, stations etc, completely ignoring how the whole game is still stuck in just a single solar system (out of 100). They have had to undergo numerous technological overhauls to be able to add new locations to the game and be able to run it with acceptable performance. Despite spending millions they are still restricted to 50-60 people per server and by all accounts server framerates are still like 6FPS which causes all sorts of problems.

Ah, the joys of game development. Had they done all of this from the get go instead of dicking around with their original plan, they'd probably be further along.

[1001]

Ah, the joys of game development. Had they done all of this from the get go instead of dicking around with their original plan, they'd probably be further along.

That's not what I'm saying.

My point is, that there is no real right or wrong way of doing this, that no matter which way you decide to develop your game you are going to run into issues. We cannot say Star Citizen is doing it right and everyone else does it wrong when they are beset with problems and remain in an alpha 7 years after starting their project. Likewise we cannot ignore that Elite, or any other game that tries to add major features after release will also not run into difficulties.

[MrAnderson]

So just normal game development issues that happen in every other big project and not worthy of all the doom drama that some like to preach. Check.

[Henako]

So just normal game development issues that happen in every other big project and not worthy of all the doom drama that some like to preach. Check.

Yeah, most games miss deadlines by more than four years.

[MrAnderson]

Yeah, most games miss deadlines by more than four years.

Yeah they do when their scope and scale increases radically.

Games with less complexity and from bigger, richer and more experienced and established studios have taken longer.

There's a reason why despite still in alpha, with all it's bugs, above average spec demands and constant wipes it keeps bringing more new players every year.

There's simply nothing in the market that can compete with the kind of gameplay, graphical fidelity and immersion it already provides.

[Odeezee]

While there is truth to this it does not mean the inverse isn't true either.

Just look at how Star Citizen is repeatedly struggling to add planets, moons, stations etc, completely ignoring how the whole game is still stuck in just a single solar system (out of 100). They have had to undergo numerous technological overhauls to be able to add new locations to the game and be able to run it with acceptable performance. Despite spending millions they are still restricted to 50-60 people per server and by all accounts server framerates are still like 6FPS which causes all sorts of problems.

see this is just disingenuous. /sigh.

how are they struggling to add planets? they have the best planetary tech of any space sim game and the different tile sets they have thus far produced allow them to make most of all the other planetary systems for the remaining solar systems barring a few exotic exceptions. so once cloud tech is completed with Crusader they will have 75% and more of all the planets covered with this tech to produce them. you also forget that they just literally introduced the first iteration of SSOCS only ONE month ago, which is part of the reason why the server tick rates are low and the PU has many issues like increased de-sync, etc but that is just the tech needing to be iterated on and mature.

you also fail to acknowledge that Star Citizen is currently not even the main focus of the game development, but why be holistic in your critique when it doesn't support your narrative, huh? pity.

[1001]

Yeah they do when their scope and scale increases radically.

Games with less complexity and from bigger, richer and more experienced and established studios have taken longer.

Don't forget that when Chris polled for enlarging the scope he said it would cost more money (obviously) but that would mean they could bring on board more staff which would result in the game being delivered faster....

There's a reason why despite still in alpha, with all it's bugs, above average spec demands and constant wipes it keeps bringing more new players every year.

Dual Universe does the same, Camelot Unchained too, Chronicles of Elyria etc. It's not really proof of anything.

There's simply nothing in the market that can compete with the kind of gameplay, graphical fidelity and immersion it already provides.

That's quite subjective though isn't it.

- - - Updated - - -

see this is just disingenuous. /sigh.

It's not disinenguous at all. If anything you are being disingenuous with the below quote that dresses everything up while ignoring the issues they have stated themselves.

how are they struggling to add planets? they have the best planetary tech of any space sim game and the different tile sets they have thus far produced allow them to make most of all the other planetary systems for the remaining solar systems barring a few exotic exceptions. so once cloud tech is completed with Crusader they will have 75% and more of all the planets covered with this tech to produce them. you also forget that they just literally introduced the first iteration of SSOCS only ONE month ago, which is part of the reason why the server tick rates are low and the PU has many issues like increased de-sync, etc but that is just the tech needing to be iterated on and mature.

Tell me how many planets and moons they have in the game since they started working on the tech in 2015?
In the latest episode of Inside Star Citizen they seem doubtfull about adding a single moon per month despite being on version 4 of their planetary tech.
If 1 moon in a month is a stretch how long do you think a planet will take?
They delayed introducing the internals of Babbage due to limits they were running up against.
They have repeatedly said they have to hold off adding things to the game because they are hitting RAM caps on the servers.

you also fail to acknowledge that Star Citizen is currently not even the main focus of the game development, but why be holistic in your critique when it doesn't support your narrative, huh? pity.

Oh really? So the roadmap reflects all the work being done on Squadron 42? Like come on....

[kenn9530]

While there is truth to this it does not mean the inverse isn't true either.

Just look at how Star Citizen is repeatedly struggling to add planets, moons, stations etc, completely ignoring how the whole game is still stuck in just a single solar system (out of 100). They have had to undergo numerous technological overhauls to be able to add new locations to the game and be able to run it with acceptable performance. Despite spending millions they are still restricted to 50-60 people per server and by all accounts server framerates are still like 6FPS which causes all sorts of problems.

They are not struggling at all with planets and stations they can implement them fairly easily and fast with the current version of tech they have, many planets will just have the basic landing points and others will have cities to explore, i dont see the 100 systems taking that much time to build even if they have not been working on it which is unlikely, fps on the servers are generally pretty good although recent patch is not as stable as the previous but optimisation will come.

The most difficult thing to do will be having more than a certain amount of players in one small area, all MMOs struggle when too many are in one area so there could be a limit on how many players will be allowed in one area if current technology cant support it,

[1001]

They are not struggling at all with planets and stations they can implement them fairly easily and fast with the current version of tech they have, many planets will just have the basic landing points and others will have cities to explore, i dont see the 100 systems taking that much time to build even if they have not been working on it which is unlikely, fps on the servers are generally pretty good although recent patch is not as stable as the previous but optimisation will come.

Unfortunately this does not tally up with reality. You say it's not difficult but here we are 5 years after planetary tech was started and there are what, 12 planetary objects in the game? For something that is supposedly fairly easy and fast...

The most difficult thing to do will be having more than a certain amount of players in one small area, all MMOs struggle when too many are in one area so there could be a limit on how many players will be allowed in one area if current technology cant support it,

Yeah, this is one big can of worms especially with large numbers of players disembarking from multicrew ships or fleet battles where missiles are tracked across meshed servers.

[kenn9530]

Unfortunately this does not tally up with reality. You say it's not difficult but here we are 5 years after planetary tech was started and there are what, 12 planetary objects in the game? For something that is supposedly fairly easy and fast..

They are working on improving the planet tech so it doesnt potentionally add on more work doing the same work over again just with newer tech, a star system has only a select number of planatery bodies, it wouldnt really make sense if they couldnt make a planet/moon fairly fast would it, the only planets that would take time are ones with cities on them.

The tech should be able to generate a planet to any required size in minutes, then they can just choose the sort of biomes and customise from there.

[1001]

They are working on improving the planet tech so it doesnt potentionally add on more work doing the same work over again just with newer tech, a star system has only a select number of planatery bodies, it wouldnt really make sense if they couldnt make a planet/moon fairly fast would it, the only planets that would take time are ones with cities on them.

The tech should be able to generate a planet to any required size in minutes, then they can just choose the sort of biomes and customise from there.

I look forward to seeing how many moons/planets they add over 2020 and seeing what sort of increase it is on the previous year.

[MrAnderson]

Don't forget that when Chris polled for enlarging the scope he said it would cost more money (obviously) but that would mean they could bring on board more staff which would result in the game being delivered faster....

Ofc having more money allows for them to have more leverage to hire more people, but that doesn't mean they will find the right people right away. And the game is being delivered faster, the full scaled and more ambitious version of it. That's why they got the planetary landings looking so good already along with many more ship's and features.

Dual Universe does the same, Camelot Unchained too, Chronicles of Elyria etc. It's not really proof of anything.

Not even remotely close to be at the same level.

That's quite subjective though isn't it.

No, It's quite factual and straightforward.

Tell me how many planets and moons they have in the game since they started working on the tech in 2015?
In the latest episode of Inside Star Citizen they seem doubtfull about adding a single moon per month despite being on version 4 of their planetary tech.
If 1 moon in a month is a stretch how long do you think a planet will take?
They delayed introducing the internals of Babbage due to limits they were running up against.
They have repeatedly said they have to hold off adding things to the game because they are hitting RAM caps on the servers.

They might only have around 12 planets/moons for now, but they are the best looking planets/moons you can land on a video-game right now.

Since they are first focused on the hard part which is making them at the highest quality at all time (both on foot and seen from space) and diversity first so that they all have a different feel and lore to match. They already have pretty much all the earth like main biomes done. Along with the traditional moons. Some planets with atmosphere and different biomes from savanna to desert to full snow planets with tundra biomes and even weather effects like snow and sand storms, rain and blizzards.



They still have the the dynamic weather, gas and clouds tech to add to them.

So it's not about quantity now, it's about making them look the best they can and developing the tech to allow them to stream them in/out easily in the future.

Having billions of planetoids in your game isn't worth much if they end up looking all the same with slightly different shape/colour variations or even worse if they don't let you land on the cool ones.

[Majestic12]

Don't forget that when Chris polled for enlarging the scope he said it would cost more money (obviously) but that would mean they could bring on board more staff which would result in the game being delivered faster....

CIG blatantly failed in acquiring those devs. Then as a dev myself, I know from experience that throwing more people at a project doesn't make them go faster, in fact, it can slow things down considerably. People need time to adjust and become productive on their own.

CIG has what, 81 openings now? It's increased, and it's not going to go down soon with the reputation SC has in the gaming community.

The arguments they used for the scope increase was borderline propaganda. The non-technical folks bought it outright and actually believed it, some people were against it. But most importantly, Chris wanted the scope creep more than anything. It's what he is used to after all... and you can't really teach an old dog new tricks.

[1001]

And the game is being delivered faster, the full scaled and more ambitious version of it.

I would love to hear how that works.

Not even remotely close to be at the same level.

Well that's to be expected, the fact is that all games add backers throughout their alpha/betas. It's really nothing special to crow about.

No, It's quite factual and straightforward.

Immersion is totally subjective. Lots of games have outstanding graphics, lots of games have similar styles of gameplay albeit in different settings.

They might only have around 12 planets/moons for now, but they are the best looking planets/moons you can land on a video-game right now.

Muh gfx

Since they are first focused on the hard part which is making them at the highest quality at all time (both on foot and seen from space) and diversity first so that they all have a different feel and lore to match. They already have pretty much all the earth like main biomes done. Along with the traditional moons. Some planets with atmosphere and different biomes from savanna to desert to full snow planets with tundra biomes and even weather effects like snow and sand storms, rain and blizzards.

Muh gfx

So it's not about quantity now, it's about making them look the best they can and developing the tech to allow them to stream them in/out easily in the future.

Muh gfx
Whatever man, when they have 99 more systems to produce and the 1st is taking years so the question of how long all of them will take is relevant. So sorry if you don't like it.

Having billions of planetoids in your game isn't worth much if they end up looking all the same with slightly different shape/colour variations or even worse if they don't let you land on the cool ones.

Did you know that making jibes at other games does not change anything about Star Citizen?

[Cyclone Jack]

Whatever man, when they have 99 more systems to produce and the 1st is taking years so the question of how long all of them will take is relevant. So sorry if you don't like it.

I was going to say, it's not about how long it takes to make the first system it's about how long it will take to make the second. The first is all about getting the tech in, refining it, etc. The second should come along smoothly.

Then I realized that the second system is Pyro, and it has mostly unique planets and can't really utilize much of the work from the Stanton system. You have a volcanic planet, a coreless planet, a demolished planet (hit by another planet), a planet being consumed by another gas giant planet, and one mostly regular planet. Oh, and an asteroid belt. So yeah, Pyro is gonna take a while.

[MrAnderson]

CIG blatantly failed in acquiring those devs. Then as a dev myself, I know from experience that throwing more people at a project doesn't make them go faster, in fact, it can slow things down considerably. People need time to adjust and become productive on their own.

CIG has what, 81 openings now? It's increased, and it's not going to go down soon with the reputation SC has in the gaming community.

The arguments they used for the scope increase was borderline propaganda. The non-technical folks bought it outright and actually believed it, some people were against it. But most importantly, Chris wanted the scope creep more than anything. It's what he is used to after all... and you can't really teach an old dog new tricks.

500+ dev's in 5 studios across the world say the contrary.

If you're really a Dev you should know that the game dev industry has a huge turnover. If you check every major video-game studio job pages you'll find that all of them always have ongoing recruitment for multiple areas.

From all the excuses to hate on Star Citizen and Chris Roberts this is one of the weakest ones, even for the biggest haters.

I would love to hear how that works.

Compare the features Star Citizen already has with the ones your dream game Eliteangerous manage to get since "dreaming" about them in 2014.

Well that's to be expected, the fact is that all games add backers throughout their alpha/betas. It's really nothing special to crow about.

Not at the same rate as Star Citizen, there's a reason why it's the biggest crowdfunded project ever and every year it's player-base grows along with it's funding.

Immersion is totally subjective. Lots of games have outstanding graphics, lots of games have similar styles of gameplay albeit in different settings.

It's not just about graphical fidelity but also, the range of freedom in actions that ties directly into immersion and are not subjective.
If you have the greatest graphics in a space game but then your pilot can't exit the ship and walk around or you're not allowed to land on the "nice" planets you get a break in the immersion. Not just a Muh gfx flex but a Muh Gameplay flex.

Whatever man, when they have 99 more systems to produce and the 1st is taking years so the question of how long all of them will take is relevant. So sorry if you don't like it.

Fortunately Star Citizen game systems are broad, deep and it's planetoids so detailed and immersive that the game is not hostage to the quantity of them.

[Majestic12]

500+ dev's in 5 studios across the world say the contrary.

If you're really a Dev you should know that the game dev industry has a huge turnover. If you check every major video-game studio job pages you'll find that all of them always have ongoing recruitment for multiple areas.

From all the excuses to hate on Star Citizen and Chris Roberts this is one of the weakest ones, even for the biggest haters.

Not sure why you bring up the 500, as no amount of devs could save Chris' repeated estimations year after year. They were always lies in order to dangle the stick in front of the backers and boost funding.

------

Community has been on fire again due to the most recent roadmap updates. I've been enjoying them week after week ever since salvage was removed(again).

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/s...uary-24th-2020

Look at all those removals. Yikes!

CIG's biggest problem has always been delivering, they were only always good at talking. They've ran out of stuff to talk about now and have to deliver. Problem is, they can't, mostly because of Chris and his project mismanagement. The guy should never have been in front of this project.