[Megathread] Star Citizen

[kenn9530]

Do you seriously still believe that? I lost faith already 2 years ago that this game ever will be finished.

The game is already delivering a good space experience, time will only make the game better, as soon as they wanted to implement planet tech so you can go anywhere you want the game size changed so if you expected it to not take at least this amount of time you have unrealistic expectations.

[ManiaCCC]

The game is already delivering a good space experience, time will only make the game better, as soon as they wanted to implement planet tech so you can go anywhere you want the game size changed so if you expected it to not take at least this amount of time you have unrealistic expectations.

You are using word "good" very liberally here. SC experience is awful, and while you can say "But I had more fun in SC than in any other AAA game", noone can prove it wrong, however some people enjoy eating shit for some reason. SC experience, for now, is objectively not good and and this free week is once again proof of that.

Also 50 player limit was supposed to be already lifted and player cap increased like 1-2 years ago. They even tried it after implementing their "jesus" tech, but it didn't work out so they reverted it. Now they have another "jesus" tech in production, but I think at this point is pretty clear, things are not going in a way they hoped and honestly, I don't believe they have talent to turn this ship around.

[kenn9530]

You are using word "good" very liberally here. SC experience is awful, and while you can say "But I had more fun in SC than in any other AAA game", noone can prove it wrong, however some people enjoy eating shit for some reason. SC experience, for now, is objectively not good and and this free week is once again proof of that.

Also 50 player limit was supposed to be already lifted and player cap increased like 1-2 years ago. They even tried it after implementing their "jesus" tech, but it didn't work out so they reverted it. Now they have another "jesus" tech in production, but I think at this point is pretty clear, things are not going in a way they hoped and honestly, I don't believe they have talent to turn this ship around.

The PU is not a priority so 50 player cap on a server is irrelevant, focus is on getting SQ42 complete, free fly week has another function and thats to put the servers to the max, its not to provide a smooth gameplay experience which if thats what you expect then your expectations are unrealistic. The so called jesus tech your on about is still the same tech they always have planned on implementing, if it was impossible they wouldnt be working on it would they.

SC is not a game your supposed to be playing everyday for 6 hours plus atm, its in development. If you dont enjoy SC then why waste your time whinning about it if you dont believe it can be finished.

[Kyanion]

the AI currently does its job and standing on chairs and t poses are a rare thing in certain areas of the game, does it matter if an AI like to stand on chairs as im pretty such normal humans do that also.

You try so hard to defend EVERYTHING SC does and make it look like they can do no wrong. Just with one simple statement like this it shows your true colors and what you're really about in this thread. I'd love to reply more but I need to go stand on my chair and make a stupid pose.

[1001]

The PU is not a priority so 50 player cap on a server is irrelevant, focus is on getting SQ42 complete, free fly week has another function and thats to put the servers to the max, its not to provide a smooth gameplay experience which if thats what you expect then your expectations are unrealistic. The so called jesus tech your on about is still the same tech they always have planned on implementing, if it was impossible they wouldnt be working on it would they.

SC is not a game your supposed to be playing everyday for 6 hours plus atm, its in development. If you dont enjoy SC then why waste your time whinning about it if you dont believe it can be finished.

How can you say it is not their priority. It is the PU that brings in the money, so of course it is their priority.

If SQ42 was their priority they would have been able to get the update video out on time, something they screwed up once again.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Why is it the more I hear about this game the more I think the devs and producers are just fleecing people for money. They obviously made claims that they now or having trouble living up to, and from what I’ve heard there is no computer advanced enough in the world to be able to do what they say they want to be in this game.

I don't think SC is a scam. I think that they are legitimately trying to build the game that was promised.

The problem is that Chris allowed the stretchgoals and scope creep to spiral out of control, so when the studio was assembled and finally began working on the game, they had to spend years and years of working out the foundation to get all of these many, many different complex systems to work.

Also doesn't help that when you have a studio of 500 or 600 something people, you're going to have woeful management inefficiency.

Currently the biggest roadblock that the project faces are the servers. The servers just simply can't handle any more stuff. The servers wouldn't be able to run if Pyro (the next star system) was dropped in just like that. Missions constantly bug out, elevators bug out, hangar terminals bug out, delivery box vending machines bug out, NPCs bug out (both background NPCs in cities and bounty/bandit NPCs in bunkers). Servers crash a lot. And so on. Until they fix server stability and are able to expand how much stuff can be running on the servers, I don't see the game really expanding more.

it seems to me that the dev want to absolutly make the game from scratch, no ?
I mean there are already several games with working net code and way more players active in a "server" than a few 50.
why are they blizzarding it and trying to reinvent the wheel for every details ?

Currently, Star Citizen is set in a single star system, the Stanton system.

Right now, Stanton has an absolutely colossal amount of assets that the servers need to track. Holy shit, so much stuff. Thousands of NPCs, hundreds of spaceships, tens of thousands to possibly hundreds of thousands of physicalized items and guns and mineable rocks, hundreds of elevators and trams and space taxis, etc. So. Much. Stuff. The servers just can't handle it anymore. We have a 50 player cap on each server and the game will crash if more players are added (because players can spawn ship, and each ship spawned spawns a ton of stuff on the ship too, and then when players do missions that spawns a ton of stuff, and it goes on and on).

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Until they revamp their server tech, we are never getting:

• NPCs in space that outnumber players.

• A hundred players hanging out in a dance club or on an 890 Jump.

• Huge org battles involving Javelins or Idris (because right now an entire server would be required to crew a Javelin or an Idris... leaving no room left on the server for an opposing team)

• More star systems

• More stuff

[kenn9530]

How can you say it is not their priority. It is the PU that brings in the money, so of course it is their priority.

If SQ42 was their priority they would have been able to get the update video out on time, something they screwed up once again.

The PU is not what brings the money its a test bed for the game thats all, they dont want to give out much information as they have said in the past not to spoil SQ42 as there have been enough trailers for SQ42 as it is so whats the point in anymore since they probably wont give anymore information regarding SQ42 development.

Main income is from the big events that dont happen often, many backers are not playing the game much or if at all and waiting for the complete product. The money comes in regardless as is proof with how much the kickstarter made.

You try so hard to defend EVERYTHING SC does and make it look like they can do no wrong. Just with one simple statement like this it shows your true colors and what you're really about in this thread. I'd love to reply more but I need to go stand on my chair and make a stupid pose.

and you try so hard to talk crap about every little thing that SC does, you cant just be patient and wait.

[ManiaCCC]

If you dont enjoy SC then why waste your time whinning about it if you dont believe it can be finished.

Look, I wont address rest of your post because it is lie repeated many many times already and there is no point to try discuss it with anyone who just want blindly defend SC for all cost.

But I want address this point. People, including me, bought into the promises, which were broken. It's absolutely crucial to talk about it. One way or another, SC is going to set colossal precedence for crowd funding market. It's extremely important to point at problems with development and if the game will go down in a way, how many people believe it will go, there has to be crowd of people or platform, which will be vocal enough, so failure wont just go away unnoticed.

It's not okay to promise everything, take over 300 mil from people (for now) and deliver ..well, nothing. It's happening too often in crowd funding space, where devs just spent money and run away and nothing ever happen. There are also some credible allegations actual fraud is happening. You may believe it or you don't, fact is, it should be talked about.

So please stop marking anyone, who is not happy with development as whiner. I am here since 2012 and it was rollercoaster. 2.6 was the best SC we ever had and but it went downhill since then. There just has to be reason why it happen.

[kenn9530]

Look, I wont address rest of your post because it is lie repeated many many times already and there is no point to try discuss it with anyone who just want blindly defend SC for all cost.

But I want address this point. People, including me, bought into the promises, which were broken. It's absolutely crucial to talk about it. One way or another, SC is going to set colossal precedence for crowd funding market. It's extremely important to point at problems with development and if the game will go down in a way, how many people believe it will go, there has to be crowd of people or platform, which will be vocal enough, so failure wont just go away unnoticed.

It's not okay to promise everything, take over 300 mil from people (for now) and deliver ..well, nothing. It's happening too often in crowd funding space, where devs just spent money and run away and nothing ever happen. There are also some credible allegations actual fraud is happening. You may believe it or you don't, fact is, it should be talked about.

So please stop marking anyone, who is not happy with development as whiner. I am here since 2012 and it was rollercoaster. 2.6 was the best SC we ever had and but it went downhill since then. There just has to be reason why it happen.

You fail to understand what is actually needed to make star citizen and complain it isnt done in the same time it takes to create some sandbox MMO, and you also took the risk of backing the game, SC has not failed to deliver as we have a PU to test how the game is progressing and a full single player campaign is coming also.

There was a community vote back in the kickstarter to increase the size of the game so if you backed and didnt keep an eye for it thats your own fault, the current version of SC couldnt be made in less than 8 years.

SC has already proven it can deliver what is needed to be a proper space game, just have to be patient for it to be complete.

[1001]

The PU is not what brings the money its a test bed for the game thats all, they dont want to give out much information as they have said in the past not to spoil SQ42 as there have been enough trailers for SQ42 as it is so whats the point in anymore since they probably wont give anymore information regarding SQ42 development.

Course it is. All the features that are advertised = PU. The roadmap = PU. The ships = PU. New moons = PU. New stations, outposts, refueling depots = PU. New outfits, guns, mission givers = PU.

The current event was prioritised over showing Squadron42 information.

Main income is from the big events that dont happen often, many backers are not playing the game much or if at all and waiting for the complete product. The money comes in regardless as is proof with how much the kickstarter made.

And nearly everytime it is focused on the PU. There has been 2 events which had any real Squadron 42 footage, 2015's Morrow Tour and 2017's mission walkthrough. All the rest PU focused.

It is ok to be wrong Kenn, no one is going to hold it against you...

[Mister K]

This thread is filled with people beating round the bush for the past 5-8 years. Everytime I pop by, it's the same people round and round. Surely you have better things to do and be optimistic and constructive instead of constantly putting the game and those who choose to support it down? Fuck me, what a life mate proper on the edge of starting the CIG revolution and take it to the man ey?

"HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE"

Just need a sign and your pitchforks, you go B TEAM!

[Val the Moofia Boss]

One way or another, SC is going to set colossal precedence for crowd funding market. It's extremely important to point at problems with development and if the game will go down in a way, how many people believe it will go, there has to be crowd of people or platform, which will be vocal enough, so failure wont just go away unnoticed.

I think the crowdfunded game craze has passed. Too many high profile debacles with crowdfunded and early access games have disillusioned people. We might see a few million for kickstarters but nothing in the tens or hundreds of millions again like Star Citizen again.

[Mister K]

I think the crowdfunded game craze has passed. Too many high profile debacles with crowdfunded and early access games have disillusioned people. We might see a few million for kickstarters but nothing in the tens or hundreds of millions again like Star Citizen again.

We have all eternity for that, there will be bigger and better crowdfunded projects, soon? Probably not, but in the future? Yep, you bet on it

[kenn9530]

Course it is. All the features that are advertised = PU. The roadmap = PU. The ships = PU. New moons = PU. New stations, outposts, refueling depots = PU. New outfits, guns, mission givers = PU.

The current event was prioritised over showing Squadron42 information.



And nearly everytime it is focused on the PU. There has been 2 events which had any real Squadron 42 footage, 2015's Morrow Tour and 2017's mission walkthrough. All the rest PU focused.

It is ok to be wrong Kenn, no one is going to hold it against you...

If it is the main source of income just by having the PU then your arguments about how buggy and unplayable are all made irrelevant because they are still throwing money at the game, PU only helps a little as the big spenders are going to put more money in regardless.

Last year was CiGs biggest year so far raising money, events bring in the most money because certain ships are on offer and come with extras not because of the PU, if you want to spend a ton backing the game thats fine but all you need is the starter pack, do the SQ42 campaign before and you can enter the MMO with a nice heavy fighter for nothing extra.

I think the crowdfunded game craze has passed. Too many high profile debacles with crowdfunded and early access games have disillusioned people. We might see a few million for kickstarters but nothing in the tens or hundreds of millions again like Star Citizen again.

Star Citizen was that game every space fan wanted but no other developer would have the balls to make.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

This thread is filled with people beating round the bush for the past 5-8 years. Everytime I pop by, it's the same people round and round. Surely you have better things to do and be optimistic and constructive instead of constantly putting the game and those who choose to support it down? Fuck me, what a life mate proper on the edge of starting the CIG revolution and take it to the man ey?

"HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE"

Just need a sign and your pitchforks, you go B TEAM!

I think that there just isn't much to talk about right now. There are several people here on MMO-C who play the game but they refrain from posting because they've already talked about their experiences a few years ago. The Star Citizen PU opened in December of 2015, and while the game has had new content and systems sprinkled into it over the years since, it's still overall the same experience as in 2015. Even if Orison or the new Pyro system were added, I doubt people would have anything to say because it'd still mostly be the same experience. However, if larger servers were added, with players being able to get involved in large player events, or with the chances of bumping into other people while out and about being higher, leading to more dynamic gameplay, then people would talk more. So far, having 50 players spread out across the huge Stanton system means you hardly see anyone else.

- - - Updated - - -

Star Citizen was that game every space fan wanted but no other developer would have the balls to make.

Eh, that's an oversimplification. At the time Star Citizen was kickstarted (way back when the vision was for a relatively humble, Freelancer 2.0), space sims were a pretty niche genre. They'd be profitable if you had a relatively small development team, but ofcourse big publishers and AAA studios want to make as much money as possible so they go for mass market appeal, which means niche genres like space sim are out.

Notice how when Star Citizen's scope creep set in, and it became less and less of a modest space sim, and more and more of a full fledged sandbox MMO where you can do anything, that Star Citizen began to attain mainstream popularity. You had people who weren't space sim fans buying in because now SC had elements that appealed to them.

Star Citizen wouldn't have gotten $300 million in pledges if it had just remained the relatively modest space sim Freelancer 2.0.

[1001]

events bring in the most money because certain ships are on offer and come with extras not because of the PU,

All these ships and things people are buying, where is it they will be able to use them? Because it sure as hell isn't in Squadron 42.

No, it's the PU that people are buying them for.

[ManiaCCC]

There was a community vote back in the kickstarter to increase the size of the game so if you backed and didnt keep an eye for it thats your own fault, the current version of SC couldnt be made in less than 8 years.

Actually, during this vote period, CR repeated several times more money = faster development. He actually said they will be able deliver more things much faster than previously thought - in other words, they will deliver more in same time.

Yes, this was first time I started to doubt, if CR actually cares about this game or he understand, what he is promising.

[kenn9530]

All these ships and things people are buying, where is it they will be able to use them? Because it sure as hell isn't in Squadron 42.

No, it's the PU that people are buying them for.

There are ships that wont be flyable until after SQ42 is released and there are some not complete yet but you can still buy them, some people have too much money to waste on having extra ingame items and will spend it. There will also be many players just buying the basic game package. Even this first 5 months SC has brought in at least 20 million this year so while it helps the money would still come along just as good.

Actually, during this vote period, CR repeated several times more money = faster development. He actually said they will be able deliver more things much faster than previously thought - in other words, they will deliver more in same time.

Yes, this was first time I started to doubt, if CR actually cares about this game or he understand, what he is promising.

more money does mean faster development, the origional release date was then void at that point so if you were still expecting a 2014 release when the company was still not fully staffed until 2015 then your expectations not reasonable.

[1001]

There are ships that wont be flyable until after SQ42 is released and there are some not complete yet but you can still buy them, some people have too much money to waste on having extra ingame items and will spend it. There will also be many players just buying the basic game package. Even this first 5 months SC has brought in at least 20 million this year so while it helps the money would still come along just as good.

Ok? But they still are buying them to use in the PU and CIG knows this which is why that side of things is the priority.

more money does mean faster development, the origional release date was then void at that point so if you were still expecting a 2014 release when the company was still not fully staffed until 2015 then your expectations not reasonable.

Holy hell dude, you sure are speaking a lot for CIG.

If that was the case then it would be on CIG to inform people, not for people to assume. I certainly don't remember any Chairman's letter saying that the 2014 date was void for reasons.

More money would only mean faster development if the project stayed the same size and even then it only works to a point, beyond that you enter the mythical man month issue. If the scope expands accordingly then it doesn't mean faster at all.

[MrAnderson]

it seems to me that the dev want to absolutly make the game from scratch, no ?
I mean there are already several games with working net code and way more players active in a "server" than a few 50.
why are they blizzarding it and trying to reinvent the wheel for every details ?

=

Wouldn't it be faster to just license all the technology from a mature MMO, where all of the things have not only been programmed but also bug-fixed and perfected throughout years in live non-beta conditions? For example, Elder Scrolls Online uses mega-servers, which is another term for server meshing. They also save fully persistent states for items and missions and can recover all of that after both client and server crash. And ESO isn't the only game where server meshing and full persistence is fully implemented and perfected (i.e. bug-free). Thus, large portions of their code could be reused. Feels like you're reinventing the wheel, wasting time that you could spend on other things.

CIG Chad McKinney@CIG_ChadMcKinney

I see this kind of response from time to time so I thought I'd give some perspective on why this approach may not make the most sense for a very large endeavor like Star Citizen. First is the issue of finding someone that will license something to you that is actually what you need. There's of course lots of big games that have been made, and many engines a long the way. The industry has indeed re-solved many problems in doing so, for example the recent Unreal 5 tech demo showed off some crazy graphics, which is likely an evolution of their voxel cone tracing implementation that was in early access in UE4. What you may not know is that there's already other implementations of the same approach in other engines, even Ogre3D has one right now (https://www.ogre3d.org/2019/08/05/voxel-cone-tracing). Why didn't Epic just use one of the existing ones or vice-versa? Well for one, licensing fees or license issues, but on a technical level because another implementation is built in a very completely different context. Often times you'll spend just as much time trying to integrate someone else's solution as just writing it yourself, but when you write it yourself you can make it very specifically solve your problems in the most direct way in the context your engine/game exists in without any bloat of a generic implementation. Now there's always a balance you strike, and you'll still find a fare amount of middleware in our engine, such as Wwise, which we haven't replaced or attempted to rewrite. It's about picking your battles, and I can tell you that it is often a mistake to bet highly on your most important fundamental systems on some other entity and hope that their solution really fits your needs and you will get the support you need. That doesn't even get into where you take your tech from there, or if you plan on making multiple games or may want to license to the engine yourself. Video games and other high performance programming domains benefit greatly from very highly tuned specific solutions which is why companies in 2020 many very large companies are still developing their own engines and haven't just converged on a single industry solution for an engine.

To use your example of Elder Scrolls Online, their problems are very different from Star Citizens. The inventory system is much simpler, and their world persistence is non-existent. ESO highly utilizes sharding with dynamic instancing, wheras in SC we are trying to push towards a unified singular instance in any region and possibly globally. It wouldn't even begin to make sense to try and take their infrastructure and integrate it into ours to solve the problems we want to solve. Source: I worked on Elder Scrolls Online.

Complaining about Work in Progress features is the bane of open development. Every single feature Star Citizen has now up and running smoothly was once doubted by cynics and haters:

> Big maps for a space game with CryEngine?
> No loading screens?
> Fully modelled Ship interiors?
> Walking inside said ships?
> First Person Shooting inside ships?
> Landing on Planets with Crysis detail?
> Putting ships inside other ships?
> Etc.

Another year another feature that's in doubt because ofc, it's still being developed. When that feature is finished and implemented something else will be in doubt. And so on and so no.

Same old bullshit. Extra Irony because it comes from a Elite Fanboy that should be doubting way more about the missing features of his game of choice.