Fire Mage Guide

[Deleted]

3.2 The Pull with Invocation:
- Unequip your weapon
- Get your Raid Leader to use the countdown macro from 12
- T-11 Ice Barrier if you choose that talent
- T- 9.5 Evocate
- T- 4 use the following macro:

/eq (name of your weapon)
/use Potion of the Jade Serpent (or replace that with whatever potion you're using on the pre-pot... you cheapskate)
/cast Pyroblast

Been thinking of this, unequip your weapon... This is to stop your weapon enchant (windsong/Jade Spirit) from procing pre-pull isnt it?
Dont know if this is a stupid remark, but to the same extent shouldnt you unequip your cloak (tailor enchant) and trinkets as well?

On the Windsong vs Jade Spirit thingy, I find with my stat wieghts I need > 50% uptime on Windsong for it to out perform Jade Spirit and at the price difference between the two probably less... most fights in MSV I dont quite hit that 50% uptime though :/
On average I seem to be in the 40% - 50% range, using Living bomb, does this make a case for using Nehter tempest more?

[Deleted]

Been thinking of this, unequip your weapon... This is to stop your weapon enchant (windsong/Jade Spirit) from procing pre-pull isnt it?
Dont know if this is a stupid remark, but to the same extent shouldnt you unequip your cloak (tailor enchant) and trinkets as well?

Evocation doesnt proc trinkets or Lightweave. Also, equipping a trinket starts a 30second CD so this would be a terrible idea

[Windry]

Ok, that sort of opens up a new question for me now. If I were to use NT for those sorts of fights, how many targets is it actually applying NT to? So far the fights I've been doing with targets like this, I've just used LB on my main nuke target and 2 others (Gara'jal hc spirit realm, Amber boss etc) but I've always been unsure where it stops becoming a DPS increase to do it.

When you sim your character, there is a DPET table. My table has Pyroblast at around 204k (keep in mind this is only the buffed instacast), NT at around 100k, and Fireball around 50k.

What this means to me is that: assuming the mob will live for more than half the duration of NT, 6 seconds (it's a little different depending on where your haste is), I should prioritize throwing up the NT over fireball.

Now, whether or not to use it is simply a question of: Should I be DPS'ing this Mob? If yes, and the mob will live for more than 6sec, I should throw NT on it.

The other thing to note is: Pyroblast dot is even better than NT. I wouldn't use it on mobs that die within 10 seconds, BUT keeping Pyroblast and NT dots up on as many mobs as possible is the key to: Will of the Emperor, Wind Lord, and Empress

[Deleted]

When you sim your character, there is a DPET table. My table has Pyroblast at around 204k (keep in mind this is only the buffed instacast), NT at around 100k, and Fireball around 50k.

What this means to me is that: assuming the mob will live for more than half the duration of NT, 6 seconds (it's a little different depending on where your haste is), I should prioritize throwing up the NT over fireball.

i could be wrong but i dont think that Simulationcraft takes into account that you get your pyro! from fireball. so my question:
fireball(crit)+inferno(glyphed aoe-dmg)+pyro > Nethertempest multidot ?

So it could be better to cast fireball when infernoblast is ready to get a "quick" instant pyro. i did not do the math here and its just an assumption but definitely something we should consider. important here: how many adds would be hit by the glyphed infernoblast? what crit-chance do we need to make this tactic perform better than simple multidot?

[Deleted]

When you sim your character, there is a DPET table. My table has Pyroblast at around 204k (keep in mind this is only the buffed instacast), NT at around 100k, and Fireball around 50k.

What this means to me is that: assuming the mob will live for more than half the duration of NT, 6 seconds (it's a little different depending on where your haste is), I should prioritize throwing up the NT over fireball.

Now, whether or not to use it is simply a question of: Should I be DPS'ing this Mob? If yes, and the mob will live for more than 6sec, I should throw NT on it.

The other thing to note is: Pyroblast dot is even better than NT. I wouldn't use it on mobs that die within 10 seconds, BUT keeping Pyroblast and NT dots up on as many mobs as possible is the key to: Will of the Emperor, Wind Lord, and Empress

Very interesting info, thanks Windry. The DPET table is something I've never looked at (I've only really been using sims for stat weights atm) but I will most definitely start using that alot more.

[Windry]

i could be wrong but i dont think that Simulationcraft takes into account that you get your pyro! from fireball. so my question:
fireball(crit)+inferno(glyphed aoe-dmg)+pyro > Nethertempest multidot ?

So it could be better to cast fireball when infernoblast is ready to get a "quick" instant pyro. i did not do the math here and its just an assumption but definitely something we should consider. important here: how many adds would be hit by the glyphed infernoblast? what crit-chance do we need to make this tactic perform better than simple multidot?

The DPET table for simcraft shows expected DPET of Pyro proc and Fireball and it assumes that Pyromaniac buff is up. So simply casting Fireball on a target without NT is even lower DPET than show there.

Glyphed Inferno Blast is 5 yard spread... so how many mobs would get hit by it depends on how they're stacked.

What I've been doing is: Inferno blast, NT, NT, NT, NT, NT, NT, Inferno Blast, Pyro, NT, NT, NT
The duration of the buff "Heating up" is just slightly longer than the CD for Inferno Blast.

What I do on Empress is: NT, Hardcast Pyroblast on one as they're coming in. A DK then Gorefiend's Grip them, and I Inferno Blast to spread the Pyro Dot. Then tab NT.

[Deleted]

windry Btw i see something important missing from your guide, elpadrino293 did an excellent post pre MoP about this and it seems not many mages consider this.
Original post:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...+larger+ignite

The basic idea is that you only use !pyro after a fireball with HS+HU active. The reason for this is the 0.5s cancel delay on HU. And the 0.75 max travel time(to a lesser degree).

HS+HU active: Fireball->!pyro.

Now the !pyro will land within 0.5s of the fireball, this means that if fireball does not crit, but !pyro does crit you still gain HS, effectively rolling the dice for HS two times instead of one(just using !pyro as soon as HS procs)
If both FB and !pyro crit you gain HS+HU again, and you follow up with FB->!pyro. This will increase your HS procs drastically.

The basic rotation should be

1. Spam fireball till HU->proc HS with IB.
2. Continue to spam fireball till you get HU
You now have HS+HU
3. You already have a fireball in cast. follow up with !pyro
4. Fireball
If only one of the two(FB/!pyro) crits you gain HS: Go to step two.
If Both FB and !pyro crits you gain HS+HU: Go to step three.


I have tried explaining this in different locations, to a somewhat unwilling crowd. If you want some more math on the subject Elpadrino "helped" me out in my explaining in this post Link

[Shangalar]

Oh I remember reading about this a while ago, definitely worth testing + there's really nothing to lose, only gain.

[Deleted]

The only thing i can come up with were it might be a dps loss is if Pyro dot runs out, though im not sure it is a dps loss even then, as getting another !pyro is big on dmg. Of cause if the HS time runs out you should use it before it does.
Though going the full 16s(?) of HS without getting another crit is a fairly low chance, same as for the pyro dot running out, that is a fairly low chance as well.

The only time I use !pyro without the above mentioned FB->!pyro, is if i get a HU just as my invocation runs out, ill force HS with IB ->Evo->!pyro, as this is the only time i experience pyro dot falling off.

[Shangalar]

Actually the dps loss would be if both fball and pyro crit, as only one would count for procs. But at current gear levels the higher chance is on one of them not critting.

[Deleted]

Actually the dps loss would be if both fball and pyro crit, as only one would count for procs. But at current gear levels the higher chance is on one of them not critting.

No as i said if both FB and !pyro crit you regain HS+HU. because you consume the first HS before FB hits as !pyro is used without GCD after FB channel. so when FB+!pyro hit target, you only have HU. So if both crit you would gain HS from first crit and HU from 2end.

Only if we start getting haste levels were our FB will get below GCD will this become an issue.

[Polarthief]

I feel like those trinkets are wrong, but it depends on your playstyle.

ToES trinket (forgot the name, too lazy to check; the one with passive Int and Haste procc) is amazing for your non-combustion rotations, but isn't going to do too much for you during Combustion time, while Relic of Yu'lon/Light of the Cosmos will give you a ton of Int, giving you a bigger Pyroblast which gives you a bigger Ignite which gives you a bigger Combustion.

I also value Crit higher than I do Int when gemming, but in no way would I rank Int procc trinkets lower than Haste procc trinkets, even with testing (especially as Fire, it's hard to test/sim stuff, due to the sporatic, RNG, nature of the specc). Haste will just give us a few combustion ticks or if lucky, another Pyroblast tick, and let us cast faster (which is why it's great for the "normal" rotation because we're just spamming Fireball and using Pyroblast when we get HU/HS), but for the "Combustion rotation", Int is going to dominate because of how Combustion dips into Ignite and Pyroblast (soon to be ONLY Ignite).

[Rickdiculous]

Since we use the PoM and alter time macros to cast our Combustions now, basically making them more powerful and guaranteeing hot streaks and procs, would the mage T14 4pc bonus be completely worthless? It would lower the CD of combust to 76 seconds, but we would still be waiting on PoM and for every other one alter time correct?

[Shangalar]

Assuming the 4 set bonus and Glyph of Combustion, Combustion will have a 72 second cooldown. A fight broken down to minutes and seconds would look roughly (very roughly) like this:

00:00 - Start of ramp up
00:06 - PoM used, Alter Time used
00:12 - Combustion used
01:24 - Combustion ready
01:36 - PoM ready, PoM used
01:39 - Combustion used (Combustion cooldown wasted - 15 seconds, total: 15)
02:51 - Combustion ready
03:06 - PoM ready, Alter time ready, PoM used, Alter Time used
03:12 - Combustion used (Combustion cooldown wasted - 21 seconds, total: 36)
04:24 - Combustion ready
04:36 - PoM ready
04:39 - Combustion used (Combustion cooldown wasted - 15 seconds, total: 51)
05:51 - Combustion ready
06:06 - PoM ready, Alter Time ready, PoM used, Alter Time used
06:12 - Combustion used (Combustion cooldown wasted - 21 seconds, total: 72)

Based on this analysis, a fight that's only 6 and a half minutes long already wastes 1 full cooldown of Combustion if it's not used as soon as it's ready.

However, the fights and mechanics vary enormously and there are immune phases, waiting phases, vulnerability phases etc. If it were a Patchwerk fight, you'd be losing 1 combustion. With the current fights being so diverse (and me not knowing all of them), I can only guess that waiting that bit might not hurt you.

[mrgreenthump]

I feel like those trinkets are wrong, but it depends on your playstyle.

ToES trinket (forgot the name, too lazy to check; the one with passive Int and Haste procc) is amazing for your non-combustion rotations, but isn't going to do too much for you during Combustion time, while Relic of Yu'lon/Light of the Cosmos will give you a ton of Int, giving you a bigger Pyroblast which gives you a bigger Ignite which gives you a bigger Combustion.

I also value Crit higher than I do Int when gemming, but in no way would I rank Int procc trinkets lower than Haste procc trinkets, even with testing (especially as Fire, it's hard to test/sim stuff, due to the sporatic, RNG, nature of the specc). Haste will just give us a few combustion ticks or if lucky, another Pyroblast tick, and let us cast faster (which is why it's great for the "normal" rotation because we're just spamming Fireball and using Pyroblast when we get HU/HS), but for the "Combustion rotation", Int is going to dominate because of how Combustion dips into Ignite and Pyroblast (soon to be ONLY Ignite).

Nope all the sims and theory i've run since start of the tier, I've gotten the result of Essence of Terror(hc) and Light of Cosmos(hc) are our BiS trinkets

---------- Post added 2012-11-08 at 03:27 PM ----------

Since we use the PoM and alter time macros to cast our Combustions now, basically making them more powerful and guaranteeing hot streaks and procs, would the mage T14 4pc bonus be completely worthless? It would lower the CD of combust to 76 seconds, but we would still be waiting on PoM and for every other one alter time correct?

Maybe not worthless, but if you want to wait for another alter time combustion its certainly devalued, plus your PoM is on same cd as glyphed combustion so even that will be screwed with the set, so ye..

[Windry]

Since we use the PoM and alter time macros to cast our Combustions now, basically making them more powerful and guaranteeing hot streaks and procs, would the mage T14 4pc bonus be completely worthless? It would lower the CD of combust to 76 seconds, but we would still be waiting on PoM and for every other one alter time correct?

My personal gearing strategy is to get 2pc ASAP (chest/gloves) and then wait until everyone else has their 4pc before rolling on helm/shoulders. Legs are our off piece for this tier. But ya... it's essentially 1 extra combustion every 6 minutes... and doing so would make it not align with PoM/Alter... so I honestly don't know if it is a gain at all.

@stX3 - You know, I've noticed it happen once in a while (double roll chance on crit), and I was going to test it out, but just never got around to it. Do you have a log of this? I'm certainly willing to update my guide.

[mrgreenthump]

@stX3 - You know, I've noticed it happen once in a while (double roll chance on crit), and I was going to test it out, but just never got around to it. Do you have a log of this? I'm certainly willing to update my guide.

After 2 mins on target dummy, i found this to be the most annoying thing ever.. And the reason why, IB came off cd maybe 9 out of 10 times before i even got to Heating up + hot streak.. and the usual outcome from doing this, would be only hot streak, the chances of both fireball and HS pyro critting.. aint good enough atm, so the gain from it would be rather low in my mind.

This was with 30.43% crit self buffed

[elpadrino293]

@stX3 - You know, I've noticed it happen once in a while (double roll chance on crit), and I was going to test it out, but just never got around to it. Do you have a log of this? I'm certainly willing to update my guide.

the first post has logs of the fireball not critting, the pyroblast! critting, and then rewarding a hot streak. you'll have to check the times to see that is was a pyro! because the two "you began to cast pyroblast" are just 1 second apart. and yes this will result in more pyroblast!s than you get doing it another way.

using my numbers for example... on my char sheet i have 30.54% crit while raid buffed. so (30.54 - 3) * 1.5 = 41.31% chance to crit on a boss. everywhere pretty much says to wait until you have both buffs, heating up and pyroblast!, before you cast the pyroblast!. so if i cast just a pyroblast! with both buffs up i have a 41.31% chance to proc another pryoblast! buff from that heating up proc i had. if instead of casting just the pryoblast! at that time, i had casted a fireball immediately followed by the pyroblast!, id have a 65.55% chance to proc another pryoblast! from either of the fireball or the pyroblast! critting. see link. on top of that, i'd have a 17.07% chance to return both a pyroblast! and a heating up proc if both parts of the fireball/pyro! crit.

[Deleted]

Currently on a 10 min break from raiding so much have time to go into detail, but tonight whenever I've fired a fireball>pyro! with hs up as well, it's almost always giving me another pyro proc. Infact it's actually rare that I haven't been giving me one. I haven't changed my rotation to deliberatly come up with the Pyro! proc + HS situations - just a normal rotation - but when they occur I've been noticing it.

I don't know if the logs are useful in working this out but feel free to look anyway Windry. Just note I havent been using the rotation method stX3 said, just the standard rotation, so not every Pyro! has been fired whilst having a HS, if that makes sense. Im fentality in the logs.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...um/damageDone/

[Deleted]

After 2 mins on target dummy, i found this to be the most annoying thing ever.. And the reason why, IB came off cd maybe 9 out of 10 times before i even got to Heating up + hot streak.. and the usual outcome from doing this, would be only hot streak, the chances of both fireball and HS pyro critting.. aint good enough atm, so the gain from it would be rather low in my mind.

This was with 30.43% crit self buffed

so your not happy with the "usual" outcome of another HS?.. .... and yes the chances of getting HS+HU again after is lower than just the HS, but that was not my point. The point is you will increase your amount of HS, if you just get HS, keep spamming Fb till you have Hu again.
and really i dont know if its because of dummy or not, but im at 30.5~% crit as well and its rare for me that IB comes off cd again. And even if it does come off cd i dont see what the problem with that is? you could use it to spread bombs. or if you only have HS use it to gain HU as well and then FB->!pyro

@windry as elpadrino already said there are combatlog screens in the first link i posted.

though i think he mis typed in he's thread here with

"the first post has logs of the fireball not critting, the pyroblast! not critting, and then rewarding a hot streak."

the type is with the !pyro not critting. it should be "The pyroblast! critting" as it show in the logs.