So alliance win the war?

[Xucuroz]

Considering no ones seen how the events of the final MoP patch play out, it's a bit too soon to say anything is unfair, when we don't know what will happen. Considering both factions will be taking Garrosh down, it's highly likely it will be a joint effort or just play out differently depending on what faction you play as. Similar to how Wrathion or whatever his name is, allies himself with either Horde or Alliance, depending on what faction your character is.

[ghostblade]

Alliance was created after the First War.

alliance that we now know was created after the third war ( a few years after the battle of mount hyjal) the alliance that was created after the first war was the threaty of the seven kingdoms aka the Alliance of lordaeron

[Zuben]

No, the war will either continue or both sides agree to settle for a Cold war. No war-reparations, no war-crime courts(except maybe internal, within the Horde). New leadership and policies for the Horde, that's it, and I bet the Alliance won't have a say there either, since it's a domestic matter they should have no part in. It's okay if one side loses a battle, but the war, with all the history of whining the playerbase produces? Nu-uh.

Personally, I hope the Horde-rebels will kick the Alliance forces out of Orgrimmar rather than the Alliance choosing to leave of their own accord.

[Frontenac]

Unless the Alliance are able to suppress ALL of the Horde or ALL of the Horde surrender, the war isn't over. Even if they took Orgrimmar, there's still the Undercity, Quel'Thalas/Silvermoon, Thunderbluff and Troll city (idk) that seemingly still exist filled with people who still hate the Alliance. Had all the Axis powers stayed in play, defeating Hitler in Germany doesn't end the war when the rest of the participating countries were still active, yes, it would have been a major blow but the war wouldn't have been over.

Bad comparison. 1) The Axis powers were not as united as the Horde is. Without Germany, Japan could still fight. Without the Orcs, the Horde is caput. 2)To reach Hitler, you had to destroy its armies first. That's exactly what will happen in WoW. We will have to invade Orgrimmar and destroy all its forces and defenses before we can reach Garrosh.

I would also like to point out that the rebel forces will be a minority of the Horde citizen. If they were the majority, if all Tauren, Trolls, Undead, Blood Elves and a good chunk of the Orcs, were to rebel against Garrosh, they would not need the Alliance help to kill him.

Also, it's not because there is a rebellion in the Horde that Garrosh will not be part of the Horde anymore. Garrosh is the Horde. He will remain the Warchief until the end of MoP. So a victory against Garrosh is also a victory against the Horde, who will not be in shape to continue the war. The Horde new leadership will need time to impose its authority, Orgrimmar will need some rebuilding and I doubt the Tauren and Troll populations will be in good shape either. I fear the only ones who will gain from the war will be the Forsaken. I think Sylvanas will use the rebellion to get rid of her Kor'kron watch dogs, and the troubles within the Horde would be a good time to fulfill her plans of conquest and plague brewing. There is even a chance the Forsaken will become THE most important military force in the Horde. Bad news for both Alliance and Horde (but good news for new story developpement).

Again, a war is not always about destroying the opposing faction. Since this war was started by Garrosh in the first place, and that Alliance and rebel forces will likely join forces to kill/depose Garrosh, the end of Garrosh will also mean the end of that war. Of course, there will still be hatred and resentment between the Alliance and the Horde which could lead to further conflicts or wars afterwards. But that war will be over. The French and English fought each other for more than 500 years. It was not all done in a single war, and it ended for good with the Entente cordiale in 1905.

I will repeat myself : Alliance will meet its objectives in that war : defend its territory and stop Garrosh. It will not be a victory by K.O., but the Alliance will make more points, if we compare the war to a boxing show.

---------- Post added 2012-10-28 at 04:02 PM ----------

alliance that we now know was created after the third war ( a few years after the battle of mount hyjal) the alliance that was created after the first war was the threaty of the seven kingdoms aka the Alliance of lordaeron

It's the same Alliance. The Alliance of Lordaeron admitted the Dwarves, Gnomes and High Elves in during the Second War. Then some kingdoms left or were destroyed, only to be replaced by other kingdoms after the Third War.

[Scummer]

No, the war will either continue or both sides agree to settle for a Cold war. No war-reparations, no war-crime courts(except maybe internal, within the Horde). New leadership and policies for the Horde, that's it, and I bet the Alliance won't have a say there either, since it's a domestic matter they should have no part in. It's okay if one side loses a battle, but the war, with all the history of whining the playerbase produces? Nu-uh.

Personally, I hope the Horde-rebels will kick the Alliance forces out of Orgrimmar rather than the Alliance choosing to leave of their own accord.

That's one hell of a Horde centric ending you have there.

No reparations or war courts would just be a kick in the teeth. The majority of Orcs willingly followed Garrosh, to just tell them that they can have everything they won under his leadership with no form punishment is just ridiculous. They need to be punished and held accountable for their actions.

New Horde leadership should be of some concern of the Alliance. The last time Horde leadership was passed it cost the Alliance thousands of innocent lives. They're the victims of the Horde's choices, more so than the Horde is.

The Horde aren't in a state where they can challenge the Alliance at the end of the War. Everything they have after Garrosh's downfall is because of the Alliance. The fact we're able to invade Orgrimmar should indicate that we at least have enough of an edge for such a move. Also in the face of Garrosh's loss the Horde is still fragmented and reeling from the conflict, whereas the Alliance is united under Varian having just liberated Orgrimmar. It would be suicide to turn on them.

[Demox]

Bad comparison. 1) The Axis powers were not as united as the Horde is. Without Germany, Japan could still fight. Without the Orcs, the Horde is caput. 2)To reach Hitler, you had to destroy its armies first. That's exactly what will happen in WoW. We will have to invade Orgrimmar and destroy all its forces and defenses before we can reach Garrosh.

I would also like to point out that the rebel forces will be a minority of the Horde citizen. If they were the majority, if all Tauren, Trolls, Undead, Blood Elves and a good chunk of the Orcs, were to rebel against Garrosh, they would not need the Alliance help to kill him.

Not united as... what? Garrosh already threatened Sylvannas and Vol'jin. Vol'jin as shown coming up, defects from Garrosh, Sylvannas never really gave a shit about Garrosh and continues to do things behind his back, the Tauren probably aren't as supportive after he unintentionally killed their leader, and the blood elves, probably just don't like him. Garrosh has shown on multiple accounts that he hates everyone who isn't an orc. How the hell is any of this in anyway being remotely close to being united?

Not to mention your second statement is also off speculation so I will add my own and point out what someone said earlier about Garrosh possibly hiring mercenaries or allying himself with not-so-savory races like Mogu and Ogres to bolster his own forces to the point where the combined Alliance and rebelling Horde forces need to take him down.

[un_known]

How is this fair? Horde are always losing wars.
.

i didn't realise that 1 war lost was "always losing" but yeah like so many others have said, if it's just the warchief going down then that's just the warchief, not the whole horde, besides, since the horde will also be able to do the siege of orgrimmar, i somehow doubt that the horde will "lose"

[Verdugo]

No dictator, no invader, can hold an imprisoned population by the force of arms forever.

Unless they get obliterated, body and soul.

[Stiven]

Hey since World of Warcraft Vanilla Horde are like Indians with your spiritual leader, and Alliance Cowboys... Can we get swap for one expension a bit :P

[Dreknar20]

Unless they get obliterated, body and soul.

"Let them hate me, as long as they fear me"

---------- Post added 2012-10-28 at 08:25 PM ----------

i didn't realise that 1 war lost was "always losing" but yeah like so many others have said, if it's just the warchief going down then that's just the warchief, not the whole horde, besides, since the horde will also be able to do the siege of orgrimmar, i somehow doubt that the horde will "lose"

its still not really something awsome to look forward to, least to me

To have to fight our own Warchief, to attack our own city, and attack our own brother in arms

[Sal the Shieldhog]

"Let them hate me, as long as they fear me"

---------- Post added 2012-10-28 at 08:25 PM ----------


its still not really something awsome to look forward to, least to me

To have to fight our own Warchief, to attack our own city, and attack our own brother in arms

After whatever he does though, we don't see Garrosh as our Warchief, or our brother-in-arms. We attack him because he isn't anymore, and because Orgrimmar doesn't belong to him; It's belongs to us, the rebels, the true Horde.

[Zuben]

That's one hell of a Horde centric ending you have there.

No reparations or war courts would just be a kick in the teeth. The majority of Orcs willingly followed Garrosh, to just tell them that they can have everything they won under his leadership with no form punishment is just ridiculous. They need to be punished and held accountable for their actions.

New Horde leadership should be of some concern of the Alliance. The last time Horde leadership was passed it cost the Alliance thousands of innocent lives. They're the victims of the Horde's choices, more so than the Horde is.

The Horde aren't in a state where they can challenge the Alliance at the end of the War. Everything they have after Garrosh's downfall is because of the Alliance. The fact we're able to invade Orgrimmar should indicate that we at least have enough of an edge for such a move. Also in the face of Garrosh's loss the Horde is still fragmented and reeling from the conflict, whereas the Alliance is united under Varian having just liberated Orgrimmar. It would be suicide to turn on them.

I realize Alliance players want to get some edge over us after all that's happened, but it would be bad for Blizzard to make Horde players feel they've been reduced to Alliance's whipping boys, especially now that faction pride is at an all time high, with Blizzard's encouragement(looking at 5.1's quests). Whoever is to become our leader, whatever Horde's doctrine will be from then on, how we should manage our war factories etc., that's OUR business, not yours.

Thrall and Varian can agree to a cease fire, then work towards a lasting peace from then on, but we will remain two different factions with our own chains of command. The worst warcriminals will certainly face a tribunal, but within the Horde, judged by the likes of Vol'jin. Alliance may be invited to observe, but they won't be a part of it. To make amends for our actions Thrall can offer some reparations, but it would be by his own choice, a show of good will to mend the damaged relationships for the sake of peace, not because the Alliance demands it with its military power backing it up. The Horde will still be able to stand up to them, this balance won't be shaken while there is still a playerbase of millions who take pride in their faction.

[Dreknar20]

After whatever he does though, we don't see Garrosh as our Warchief, or our brother-in-arms. We attack him because he isn't anymore, and because Orgrimmar doesn't belong to him; It's belongs to us, the rebels, the true Horde.

it still puts a damper on the Horde

---------- Post added 2012-10-28 at 09:02 PM ----------

The Horde will still be able to stand up to them, this balance won't be shaken while there is still a playerbase of millions who take pride in their faction.

True enough.

If Blizzard took the other route you described, to just kick dirt in Horde player's faces on top of making us attack our own people, it would make the QQ about the current faction favoritism QQ look like child's play

[Trassk]

The horde is now and will be suffering even more greatly as things stir up in the coming months. The last thing it will want as a faction is to have the alliance coming in, pushing them around and answering to them like there the boss.

The horde deals with its own problems. Its just a case of it being the alliances problem too with ending this war. Yet anyone who dares assume the alliance has clean hands in this conflict is more ignorant then Garrosh is warmongering. How would you like it if I said silvermoon has the right to have Vereesa's head on a platter because of what she does to the sunreavers in dalaran? Would that be fair since this is how you want to end the conflict as alliance, it seems an even argument.

No, Garrosh will be dealt with, but the hore will not answer to the alliance. If the alliance wants to understand that the largest portion of the horde was being lead by fear from Garrosh and his followers, then by all means, lend a hand in taking him down.

[Vesker]

I don't think it will be an Alliance victory, more that the Alliance is doing the Horde a HUGE favor which is going to hang over us or rather the Orcs for a long time to come. I'm Forsaken, we can just say Garrosh ordered us to steamroll Gilneas (which is actually true) and we had to because his stupid private army is still in our city getting suspicious if we so much as spend too long in the bathroom. The war will end because the idea of a serious Alliance vs Horde confrontation lasting forever is ridiculous. It's like Wrathion says, there will soon be bigger fish to fry. Why waste time and effort on an enemy that will never be defeated when other enemies are lining up for genocide.

[Scummer]

I realize Alliance players want to get some edge over us after all that's happened, but it would be bad for Blizzard to make Horde players feel they've been reduced to Alliance's whipping boys, especially now that faction pride is at an all time high, with Blizzard's encouragement(looking at 5.1's quests). Whoever is to become our leader, whatever Horde's doctrine will be from then on, how we should manage our war factories etc., that's OUR business, not yours

Alliance players don't want an edge, they want some sort of pay back that makes sense. This about common sense after a war has ended and the reparations the aggressor/loser pays.
When one faction started a war, killed thousands of innocent lives and took the other faction's land or pushed further into it and thus destroyed their land has just been bailed out by the people they committed these acts to some sort of repayment/apology is definitely on the priority list.

A simply "sorry" from Thrall isn't going to cut it.

I expect them to probably be working together for the most part at the Siege, so I'm not asking for the Alliance to bully the Horde into giving over swathes of resources and other such things. But to pretend it never happened and brush it under the rug is a massive cop out that in the end shows the Horde can pretty much do what it wants and get away with it which is just poor story telling in the end.

---------- Post added 2012-10-28 at 09:57 PM ----------

If the alliance wants to understand that the largest portion of the horde was being lead by fear from Garrosh and his followers, then by all means, lend a hand in taking him down.

That is only the case so far as the other non-Orc races are concerned. The majority of Orcs have always and still support Garrosh. To just point the finger at him and excuse everybody else in the Horde of their actions would make for an awful ending to the expansion.

[Dreknar20]

The war will end because the idea of a serious Alliance vs Horde confrontation lasting forever is ridiculous. It's like Wrathion says, there will soon be bigger fish to fry. Why waste time and effort on an enemy that will never be defeated when other enemies are lining up for genocide.

Those Kor'kon have been there since Thrall's days, plus Sylvannas had her own motives for invading Gilneaus beyond what was ordered by Garrosh.

The war cant last forever, but it really hasent lasted that long either. It started in Cata, but it was interrupted by a big-ass dragon.

As to your last point. Can that not cut both ways? Why waste time fighting enemies that are not allowed to defeat us?

[MoanaLisa]

It's not clear that simply taking down Garrosh ends the war. Most likely the two factions will agree post-Garrosh to violently disagree as before until the next thing comes along that threatens the planet. It's fair to assume that will be the next expansion.

So, it's possible that we go through everything in the expansion and politically end up where we started.

[Trassk]

You know, I feel its worth saying this. Having played horde, and now having done quests to start in pandaria, something really irritated me about the opening quests, despite what we were told as it being both horde and alliance to be at fault for whats happening on pandaria.

When I arrive on pandaria as horde, theres a conflict, our ship gets blown up, our commander (nazgrim) succumbs to the sha before taran zhu comes in and saves him, and gives nazgrim a firm telling off. He claims he doesn't wish for his race war on there shores, and berates you despite having just shown responsibility for your actions.

Now playing alliance side, it plays similar but with some very prompt differences. The skycaptain orders the alliance to slaughter the orcs, who are defenseless, leading to your night elf buddy succumbing to the sha, and Taran Zhu doing his thing again, only now here on the alliance side he acts more laid back, DESPITE the fact they just slaughered a bunch of weaponless orcs, and gave into the sha like nazgrim did.

As horde, you help the villagers to take care of the fall out from the battle, gather beer barrels and deal with the sha corruption, before moving on, to deal with the alliance capturing young pandaren, which you have to free.

As alliance, right from the off, the villagers are claiming the orcs as monsters, cutting down there fruit trees and all other sinister stuff.


to my point. It seems to me well on the horde side, the devs were content with just having the horde player help out with the villagers in there starting area, show there worth in cleaning up, and then saving the pandaren after the alliance have captured some of there own (which these pandaren didn't have a huge fuss of), on the alliance side, you have this overwhelming feeling of trying to engrain the idea that "Horde is Evil, We must kill all Orcs!". there wasn't anything like this when playing a horde character when regarding the alliance, and yet well Taran Zhu rips on you as horde for your actions, when he addresses the alliance, he's all peaceful and good with you by comparison.

This opening didn't balance things out, it was a clear cut push to make the alliance player feel like they were the ultimate good on pandaria and the horde is evil, well as horde, we were made to feel like we were responsible for all this, even when trying to clean up the aftermath and help save the pandaren children from the alliance.

This whole expansion feels like a setup to make anything the alliance does as justifiable, yet when the horde does the same, its bad? Now tell me where the bias is.

[Falrinn]

I realize Alliance players want to get some edge over us after all that's happened, but it would be bad for Blizzard to make Horde players feel they've been reduced to Alliance's whipping boys, especially now that faction pride is at an all time high, with Blizzard's encouragement(looking at 5.1's quests). Whoever is to become our leader, whatever Horde's doctrine will be from then on, how we should manage our war factories etc., that's OUR business, not yours.

Thrall and Varian can agree to a cease fire, then work towards a lasting peace from then on, but we will remain two different factions with our own chains of command. The worst warcriminals will certainly face a tribunal, but within the Horde, judged by the likes of Vol'jin. Alliance may be invited to observe, but they won't be a part of it. To make amends for our actions Thrall can offer some reparations, but it would be by his own choice, a show of good will to mend the damaged relationships for the sake of peace, not because the Alliance demands it with its military power backing it up. The Horde will still be able to stand up to them, this balance won't be shaken while there is still a playerbase of millions who take pride in their faction.

Agreed, we also have to consider that the Alliance could very well retake a lot of lost territory before the Horde rebellion gets kicked into high gear. I see a lot of people who seem to work under the assumption that the Siege of Orgrimmar will be the only significant battle, which won't necessarily be the case.