[Arcane] How could Arcane become more appealing?

[zomgDPS]

Thanks zomg - great analysis

It gets better.



For this next part I want ya'll to focus on these 4 columns (pairs of 2. One for RoP, one for Icw).

	125%				75%
	base	inv	rop	icw	base	inv	rop	icw
AB0	0.500	0.500	2.500	1.800	0.500	0.500	2.500	1.800
AB1	1.375	2.375	0.625	0.075	0.625	1.625	1.375	0.675
AB2	3.250	4.250	1.250	1.950	1.750	2.750	0.250	0.450
AB3	5.125	6.125	3.125	3.825	2.875	3.875	0.875	1.575
AB4	7.000	8.000	5.000	5.700	4.000	5.000	2.000	2.700
AB5	8.875	9.875	6.875	7.575	5.125	6.125	3.125	3.825
AB6	10.750	11.750	8.750	9.450	6.250	7.250	4.250	4.950

Lets start with RoP:

* One of the effects of the 75% change, is that with RoP, AB2 is now a mana positive cast.

Why is this important?
* Mana positive casts allow for mana positive cycles. Mana positive cycles allow for 'mana management' gameplay by serving as mana management "tools", i.e. things you use to influence your mana level. (n.b. this is only relevant if you have a reason to burn mana in the first place - which is why 'burn phase' is so important to Arcane, but I've covered that already).

Currently (on live), the following are the stable, pure positive cycles for RoP:
N.B a 'stable' cycle is one that does not rely on procs. A 'pure positive' cycle is one where all spells cast are mana positive.
N.B ABr under RoP is always mana positive with a value of 2.500

- AB0ABr
- AB1ABr

With 75%, we have a new mana positive cycle for RoP:

AB2ABr.

The question then becomes, is having an extra mana pure positive cycle going to have any major gameplay impact for Arcane?
Does it add to an already dwindling 'mana management toolbox' for the spec?

Lets find out.

The way you find out if some particular cycle is not degenerate (i.e. that it is optimal in some way) is to check its DPS DPM and MPS tradeoffs against its neighbor cycles.

So basically, we need to compare DPS DPM and MPS values for AB2ABr with its closest mana pure positive neighbor, AB1ABr

Lets add some numbers.

Assuming:
20k spellpower.
15% haste.
crit is irrelevant (we want just base comparisons).

Cycle	AB damage (total)	ABr damage	total damage	time	AB mana	ABr mana	total mana	DPS	DPM	MPS
AB1ABr	43827.25	66078.75	109906.00	4.78	3.88	2.50	6.38	22980.35	17240.16	1.33
AB2ABr	66078.75	88555.50	154634.25	6.52	2.75	2.50	5.25	23710.59	29454.14	0.81
delta								730.24		0.53

What does this mean?
* Under 75%, with RoP, when you change from an AB1ABr cycle to an AB2ABr cycle, you gain ~730 DPS but lose 0.53% mana per second of regeneration, yet still remain mana positive.

So the question is, is a 730 DPS (with 20k sp) a large enough gain to make AB2ABr a worthwhile cycle? I don't think so.
The 730 gain will be eaten up by, firstly, mana adept and secondly, RNG.


Hence AB2ABr is a degenerate cycle under RoP.

A similar analysis with similar results can be carried out for the new mana positive cast under Icw (which is the other pair of columns up top).


TLDR Version:

We don't gain anything from a gameplay standpoint with these changes either.


The deeper I look into it, the more this change ends up looking like a whole bunch of nothing.

We'll see though, there is one last analysis I need to run.

[Shangalar]

From a gameplay standpoint this change would allows us to go to 5 Charges using Blast with Invocation and to go to 6 Charges using Blast with Rune of Power during Arcane Power. This is in fact a dps increase as it allows more opportunities to gain Missiles stacks which means we get to cast more Missiles.

[zomgDPS]

This is in fact a dps increase as it allows more opportunities to gain Missiles stacks which means we get to cast more Missiles.

The DPS increase is an obvious side effect. The increase AM proc chance is what my previous post was about.

Not only that, but I actually already predicted a change like this would occur. Scroll to my posts earlier in this thread and you will read that I said that they will just 'buff the numbers' to make Arcane OP to force people to play it. But people will play it and hate it, because the core of what is wrong with the spec right now is that its just static and boring to play.


What I am far more interested in is actual gameplay side effects of changes, not just "your max stack for level 90 talent X goes from A to A+1". Those aren't gameplay changes, they are just throughput changes.

Arcane is suffering right now, not just numerically, but from a gameplay standpoint as well. There just isn't any thought required in the spec anymore. There is no dynamic play, no real mana management.
Arcane's 'mana gameplay' currently consists of "you are either keeping your mana at X% using this specific rotation that you have to follow simon says style, or you're doing it wrong" - that's not testing your ability for 'mana management', that's testing your ability to follow instructions. That is contrary to what Arcane has always been about.


Even since the days of BC, where Arcanists had to make split second decisions on how long to keep weaving in frostbolts in between AB stacks in order to maximise uptime for AB cross multiplied by fight length and mana longevity, Arcane has been about dynamic play. This dynamic aspect has always been at the core of Arcane, all the way up to Cata.
That is what is lost now.


What I am much more interested in, is finding a solution to bring that back again.
Make casting spells as Arcane be a decision the Arcanist makes on the spot, in real time, depending on the situation at hand. Instead of it being some pre-scripted, pre-generated formula that has to be followed verbatim or die. That was the measure of a real Arcanist, one that could wield his mana specifically for the fight at hand.


Take AM for example. For the longest time, the thing that made the AM proc unique, was that unlike other procs, AM wasn't a "OMG ITS PROCCED USE IT IMMEDIATELY OR BE CALLED A NUB" style of proc. Instead, AM was a tool Arcane used to manage mana. There were times AM would proc and you wouldn't use it at all, whereas, there were other times (flame orb AM machine gun mode anyone?) where you would almost exclusively use AM. The choice of how to use AM was up to the Arcanist. That is what made AM an interesting and unique proc.

But now? AM is in the "OMG USE IT NAO" category, just like FoF, Pyro, and every other proc out there. I would like to see AM be given its uniqueness back.

One possibility that I am seriously exploring is increasing the size of the AM bank from 2 to around 6. Being able to 'bank' AM procs could lead to some interesting gameplay which could place choice back in the hands of the Arcanist. Say there is a big damage phase coming up in a fight, you can start banking your procs early to unleash a massive burn at that time. Or say you want to extend a burn or coast at 6 stacks for as long as possible, then you can weave in ABs between AMs in order to extend the up-time of max stack damage.


Take note. I have read all of you guys' 'suggestions' in the thread so far. None of them will work. Namely because they are 'too big'. As I mentioend earlier, it is too late for overhauls right now. The kind of thing we need is a small, elegant solution. One that is not only easy to implement, but easy to revert and alter if needed. Adding whole new systems that do x or y, or even adding in whole new abilities will just not be realistic right now. Which is why I prefer the "increase AM bank size from 2 to 6" because it doesn't require anything (and could probably be done in a hotfix). I'm not saying that solution is a fix all, but we really wont be able to push for a 'fix all' solution right now anyway.

At best, we can get some bandaid fixes.

[Deleted]

As I mentioend earlier, it is too late for overhauls right now.

I agree. Tweaking the numbers is the only thing they will do. And that's why your suggestion about Arcane Missile bank doesn't work because they'd have to find a new way to show multiple Arcane Missile procs.

What I miss is an easy way to refresh our precious charges, because that's where movement has the biggest impact. Now when we have the same talents between all specs we can't have Nether Tempest acting as a charge refresher. So we need a new spell, a low hitting instant spell, much like Ice Lance. Something you can spam while moving. Arcane Explosion has the correct mechanics but it has too short range for this. Arcane Strike, 40 yard range, always refreshes charges and has a 30% chance to grant a charge. When the other specs can spam instant spells for procs I think we should be able to do that too.

[zomgDPS]

because they'd have to find a new way to show multiple Arcane Missile procs.

Wait.. you mean those power aura things? (Does anyone even use those??).

I'm pretty sure that isn't a big problem. Heck, even I can write a mod in an hour to handle that.


No.. the real problem with the banks idea would have to be something else. Probably something to do with some unintended side effect like someone being able to game it to stay at 6 stacks indefinitely.

Either way.. like I said before, its not a 'silver bullet' solution. I don't even think one exists right now. Its more a kind of guide as to the type of things that we should think about right now when we think about how to help the spec.


Obviously, they failed hard with their design for Arcane in MoP and what the spec needs is a complete overhaul. I guess we will have to wait until next expansion for that (if any of us are even here). I, for one, have pretty much given up on the spec now. It really is a dead spec for MoP.



I do hope they learned a few things though. I hope they learned the value in listening to beta testers who have proper, working, demonstrable knowledge about the spec instead of listening to Lhivera. He really is to blame for a lot of the current broken state with the spec.

Back in beta, many of us argued against what he was proposing for Arcane (n.b. the current design for the spec is pretty much exactly what he wanted it to be, even though he never plays it). He just straight up missed the core of the spec and wanted to turn it into frost 2.0. He used his 'contacts' at blizz to make it happen and this is the result. I really can't say "I told you so" hard enough at this point.

Hopefully blizz and the rest of the mage community learns from this experience. Though, deep down inside, I highly doubt anyone has. I'm quite certain next expansion the exact same thing will happen. People with agendas will lobby on the beta forums, and real issues will be ignored and the spec will again be in the gutter.

What I miss is an easy way to refresh our precious charges, because that's where movement has the biggest impact.

I would approach this problem from the other side. Instead of having a way to refresh/maintain our charges, I want to focus on a way to lessen the ramp up. I say this because the ramp up is also one of the main reasons arcane just outright sucks in PvP.
By making Arcane have less of a ramp up time, we naturally lessen the impact of movement as well as loosing charges.
From everything I've read, pretty much every single mage who has even touched arcane says that the 6 stack ramp up is just waaay too much. Funnily enough, the only mage that I have ever even seen defending arcane's ramp up as being "fun" is Lhivera. FML.

[Shangalar]

So the patch is coming this Tuesday/Wednesday and there's not mention of the mana cost debuff reduction so we won't be seeing that live anytime soon. However, this gives us some time to discuss and possibly suggest any meaningful fixes that might be implemented for 5.2. As we all agree, there's no time mid-expansion to do overhauls, let's just find something relatively simple that might be implemented to partially fix our issues.

[schwarzkopf]

As we all agree, there's no time mid-expansion to do overhauls, let's just find something relatively simple that might be implemented to partially fix our issues.

Simple changes I'd like to see:

1. Evocation/Invocation buff permanent until you enter combat (do it once before the pull)
2. Rune of Power is permanent until you enter combat
3. Increase duration of incanter's absorbtion capture phase.
4. Increase AM proc rate ... having to wait 20 casts for a single proc kinda sux.
5. Alter the baseline for arcane dps 'equivalence' to 80% mana or lower, rather than 100%.

None of these are huge technologically, nor impact on PVP or DPS that much (maybe 1-3 might have pvp issues I haven't thought of), but might make arcane slightly more pleasant to play.

Now that I'm doing double the dps as a noob fire mage that I was as an experienced arcane mage - there is no longer any doubt that Arcane is totally broken (at least in my mind).

[Elegiac]

Well, apparently we'll be waiting a long time for Arcane to be appealing. From GC's Twitter:

Greg Street‏@Ghostcrawler

@Polarthief Invocation works for Arcane, but feels too maintenancy for others. IW is a bigger topic.

Normally I cut the devs a little slack, but this is absolutely ridiculous. Invocation works for Arcane? Invocation is by far the worst of the three talents and is only usable with ridiculously stupid rotations that devalue Mastery.

And:

Q: Any chance Mages could get rune of power castable on the move? A: don't want it to be a buff you just hit on cooldown. Agree it needs a little work.

What the fuck do they want out of Rune of Power, exactly?

[schwarzkopf]

Invocation is by far the worst of the three talents and is only usable with ridiculously stupid rotations that devalue Mastery.

Invocation is the least bad of the three for Arcane, but only because the other two are so brain damaged.

They must be able to see the number of people dropping arcane for fire/frost in their data - I can't believe they can ignore that.

[Imnick]

I also found Rune of Power to be the best of the three for Arcane, even with the movement limitation. I know you use a different rotation than the rest of us though and I haven't tried that one out myself yet.

Incanter's Ward is just sort of unworkable in general for the spec even if you can reliably trigger it, though it is mostly fine for the other two.

[Jawless Jones]

do whatever they did with arcane in wrath, and put it in MoP

its simple really =P

[Nitros14]

I'm a bit baffled. I see all the fire mages using invocation and find rune of power best for arcane. I would hate to not stack mastery as arcane personally, it's the only thing setting the spec apart (increased multidotting and aoe damage).

[Elegiac]

Invocation is the least bad of the three for Arcane, but only because the other two are so brain damaged.

They must be able to see the number of people dropping arcane for fire/frost in their data - I can't believe they can ignore that.

Blizzard operates under the assumption that if a spec is popular, it is overpowered. Which is rarely the case especially in terms of pure classes.

[Monkeymage]

I play arcane in every raid and on every boss and do fine with it.
If it helps anyone that plays or wants to play arcane I’m on the nagrand server so you can check my WOL.
I know there's some awesome mages on here so if anyone else has some positive tips to share with me plz do so. I love learing how to become a better mage.

My wish list to improve arcane would be:


1) Using Invocation will also always gives you AM proc.
2) Arcane charges don’t drop off until you make them or extend the charge life by another 3 sec.
3) A glyph for POM for Invocation. This could give you a burn phase.
4) A glyph of Ice Floes. When used it resets your blink.

Anyone of these would make arcane a more forgiving spec to play.

I pay my $15 a month to play so I play what I enjoy. If I was holding my guild back they would have sat me already.
If you love frost or fire, play them. However, play whatever spec you enjoy for everything it's worth.

[Methusula]

The interpretation I got from GC's response is that Invocation works for Arcane in terms of how it has a meaningful impact on the rotation and feel of the spec. It should theoretically, allow for more control over burst windows(N/A with Rune and too touchy with IW). I am not sure what he was thinking with the RoP response about casting on the move but remember, these are Tweets and he can't go into a ton of detail with every response. This naturally leads to more open interpretations of what he is trying to convey with his responses. He has already reminded his Twitter followers of this on numerous occasions.

---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 11:16 AM ----------

I play arcane in every raid and on every boss and do fine with it.
If it helps anyone that plays or wants to play arcane I’m on the nagrand server so you can check my WOL.
I know there's some awesome mages on here so if anyone else has some positive tips to share with me plz do so. I love learing how to become a better mage.

My wish list to improve arcane would be:


1) Using Invocation will also always gives you AM proc.
2) Arcane charges don’t drop off until you make them or extend the charge life by another 3 sec.
3) A glyph for POM for Invocation. This could give you a burn phase.
4) A glyph of Ice Floes. When used it resets your blink.

Anyone of these would make arcane a more forgiving spec to play.

I pay my $15 a month to play so I play what I enjoy. If I was holding my guild back they would have sat me already.
If you love frost or fire, play them. However, play whatever spec you enjoy for everything it's worth.

It's great tht you are able to play what you want and not hold your guild back. Not all of us have that chance, however. Arcane is IN FACT being left in the dust by fire and even frost in competitive raiding. You don't even need to be in a cutting edge guild for this to have a significant effect on your group. I am a slightly above average mage at best, only parsing once a week on all bosses combined if that, but if I were putting up the numbers as Arcane that I do as Fire, I'd parse every fight. It's passable for casual raiding and that's about it atm.

[zomgDPS]

Greg Street‏@Ghostcrawler

@Polarthief Invocation works for Arcane, but feels too maintenancy for others. IW is a bigger topic.
And:
Q: Any chance Mages could get rune of power castable on the move? A: don't want it to be a buff you just hit on cooldown. Agree it needs a little work.

I swear every time he opens his mouth about mages I cringe a little. After his "mages would stop evocating" comment from a few weeks ago, I didn't think I could /facepalm any harder.

Guess I was wrong.

These guys really have absolutely no idea what the fuck is going on, do they?
Invocation works for Arcane?? Riiight. I'll get right on that after I'm done blowing people up with my 7+ pyros in a single deep.

I mean we really have no more need for any more evidence, do we? There really isn't anyone on the class design team who have even the slightest clue as to wtf to do about mages, do they?

I guess that's why it seems like any changes they want to make to mages seem like they are just throwing sh!t at a wall and seeing what sticks.

The future just does not look very bright for us my friends.

I play arcane in every raid and on every boss and do fine with it.

Ok this kind of sh!t is really starting to piss me off now.

If you don't give a fuck about your performance, they please stay out of this discussion. Its like those idiots back in the day who would come in and say "I raid just fine with a 0/0/0 spec. I like raiding with no talents. Everything is viable!!".

Just because you get carried and/or raid with a bunch of under-performing morons, doesn't mean that we can just ignore the overwhelming objective and statistical evidence as well as the mountains of empirical evidence provided by mages in progression and/or cutting edge content that that clearly state that Arcane is a dead spec in both PvP and PvE.

The fact that you feel you can ignore all that evidence just shows you really have nothing you can possibly add to this discussion. And yea.. your $15 a month allows you to play what you want, sure, but it doesn't allow you to spew your bullsh!te everywhere and force the rest of us to just sit here and take it.

FFS! Its your first post on these forums too. Jesus Christ, lurk more please.


Infracted

[Deleted]

So ye, Do I need to dish out actual maths, or will people just accept that there is no way its gonna make itself to live server... It would destroy every spec out there on single target dps

It seems that you guessed wrong. It went live.

• The damage buff from Arcane Charge has been increased from 22% to 25%, and Arcane Blast's mana cost increase when affected by Arcane Charge is now +75% (was +125%).

[mrgreenthump]

It seems that you guessed wrong. It went live.

• The damage buff from Arcane Charge has been increased from 22% to 25%, and Arcane Blast's mana cost increase when affected by Arcane Charge is now +75% (was +125%).

mm.. though coming back on my previous comment, thinking abt it later on.. its hardly going to demolish anything, like sure it will prolly be highest single target dps on fights with near 0 movement, but then again it aint that much infront of fire so sticking fire would still be my choice unless the fight was progress fight and arcane would simply be better..

[Nitros14]

I love the new arcane buffs, 110k DPS on Shek'zeer without flasks. I'm mastery heavy with rune of power and you can stay at 6 stacks for a hilariously long period without going below 90% mana.

[Shangalar]

It went live?

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Looking forward to tomorrow in Europe eh.