[Holy] Fix my Heals!

[Xs]

To be fair, it's just hitting more Holy Radiance with higher spirit. EF pallys can run out of mana at any level of obtainable spirit.

Hes using DL/HL/FoL with heavy LoD use, so mana usage is going to feel different doing it correctly with HR/EF. Its not so much that he will find he actually needs 18k, but that its safer to practice with more and go down than the other way around.

[PosPosPos]

Hes using DL/HL/FoL with heavy LoD use, so mana usage is going to feel different doing it correctly with HR/EF. Its not so much that he will find he actually needs 18k, but that its safer to practice with more and go down than the other way around.

What you just said has nothing to do with EF paladins running out of mana at any spirit level.

And my point was exactly just that. People advocating a certain spirit level and refuse to accept anything above that generally don't understand how holy paladins have the ability to burn excess mana for extra HPS.

[Xs]

What you just said has nothing to do with EF paladins running out of mana at any spirit level.

And my point was exactly just that. People advocating a certain spirit level and refuse to accept anything above that generally don't understand how holy paladins have the ability to burn excess mana for extra HPS.

People do indeed advocate a certain Spirit level, which is usually 14-16k in normals. Going much above that makes it very difficult to actually use your mana at a reasonable rate assuming you're doing everything correctly, which you should get better at and not gear for, especially in the case of mana 'return'. Giving people ideas that considerably more than the normal isn't something that should be shaved down as comfortability increases, is only making them believe they're doing better than they are, which isn't what they come to this thread for.

The advocated Spirit level is there for a reason, and when we don't have a choice like Druids or Priests, we have to use our maximum mana usage rotation to be competitive, its not really a number that can be moved by anything other than lack of skill(practice) or external cooldowns.

[Lucyrotten]

People do indeed advocate a certain Spirit level, which is usually 14-16k in normals.

You advocate certain spirit levels. I can go back in this thread and find a million examples where you've told people where they should be comfortable.

Most everyone else says to find a happy place. If people complain about going OOM, get more, if Divine Plea usage is low/non-existent and there is no mention of mana, go lower.

You could put 22k spirit on me and I can find a way to use it. I can get by with more like 15k but that's not to say that more is unusable.

I'm starting to get frustrated with the on-going spat you two seem to have going. PPP, you're an instigator and need to stop it. Xs, please stop acting like you know how the class is played at all levels in all raid formats. Both of you need to figure out what you actually know and speak to that instead of just sniping and bitching at each other for endless pages in this thread and others.

[Xs]

You advocate certain spirit levels. I can go back in this thread and find a million examples where you've told people where they should be comfortable.

If someone is in this thread, they want guidance. Giving them a rough number to aim for based on the items they have is what I do when I respond to someone looking for help. Also to be exact, there's about 15 examples over the course of 6 months, where I have actually given an exact number to aim for, which considering I've posted in this thread fuck knows how many times, is quite a reasonable amount.

Most everyone else says to find a happy place. If people complain about going OOM, get more, if Divine Plea usage is low/non-existent and there is no mention of mana, go lower.

Outside of this thread, I tend to use the happy place suggestion a lot more. Within this thread, the large majority are fresh rerolls/returners or Paladins who feel they're under-performing and need guidance, I could tell them to find their happy place and they'd continue gemming full Spirit into the 20k+ mark and never using Divine Plea, and while that could have been a somewhat viable strategy when it MSed you, now there is no excuse for that. I'd much rather put someone on the right track and then they work on their own feelings from there, a more advanced chat or even just a long standing lurk in the other discussion threads. If I had the time I'd also break down every response I give with a full breakdown of what everything gives them and what they can do to improve it, at least in the case of the meta, but I don't always have time, but I've tried to do it on a regular basis for those doing some research before they post.

[nightfalls]

If someone is in this thread, they want guidance... Within this thread, the large majority are fresh rerolls/returners or Paladins who feel they're under-performing and need guidance, I could tell them to find their happy place...

The person you responded to and what provoked this "discussion" was asking about Heroic Dark Shamans/Iron Juggernaut. He's quite a bit above the level you are talking him "down" to.

[Xs]

The person you responded to and what provoked this "discussion" was asking about Heroic Dark Shamans/Iron Juggernaut. He's quite a bit above the level you are talking him "down" to.

In my first reply, to him, my response pointed out his flaws and suggested he may want to look towards regemming, which is all he really needed to look at. Subsequent replies are all towards PPP, defending my suggestion from repeated attacks, none of which are aimed at the OP.

[PosPosPos]

I'm starting to get frustrated with the on-going spat you two seem to have going. PPP, you're an instigator and need to stop it. Xs, please stop acting like you know how the class is played at all levels in all raid formats. Both of you need to figure out what you actually know and speak to that instead of just sniping and bitching at each other for endless pages in this thread and others.

No more an instigator than someone who says SH is end-all-be-all.

And be that as it may, seems like you are doing the same thing as well with this post of yours.

In my first reply, to him, my response pointed out his flaws and suggested he may want to look towards regemming, which is all he really needed to look at. Subsequent replies are all towards PPP, defending my suggestion from repeated attacks, none of which are aimed at the OP.

Hint: those bosses are healing intensive.

And yes, I can use Divine Plea on recharge, call for perfect mana cooldown usage, and end the fight at <5% mana with 25k spirit and above. I know because I have tried.

P.S. I have "spats" with anyone I disagree with on a fundamental level

[Lucyrotten]

No more an instigator than someone who says SH is end-all-be-all.

What does this have to do with anything other than trying to inflame someone? I'm pretty sure it's not directed at me since I've never taken that position.

You disagree just to be disagreeable not because you have anything useful to contribute to a conversation. That's instigating by my definition.

I was pointing out that you and Xs butt heads more than is reasonable and both of you need to check yourselves.

[Xs]

And yes, I can use Divine Plea on recharge, call for perfect mana cooldown usage, and end the fight at <5% mana with 25k spirit and above. I know because I have tried.

You're mana positive at 25k even doing a HR>HR>HR>HR rotation without any cooldowns at all, so I doubt that.

This is instigation, because I'm allergic to bullshit.

[Deleted]

You're mana positive at 25k even doing a HR>HR>HR>HR rotation without any cooldowns at all, so I doubt that.

This is instigation, because I'm allergic to bullshit.

So while I havent done the math im pretty damn sure that this is false, considering I almost run with 19k spirit and used to run with 2 resto shamans I was far from being mana positive, could easily spend my mana in 4 mins or so (and im also a blood elf for that little extra mana regen).

On the topic of giving advise for spirit levels the best piece of advice you can give is EF = full spirit gear with no reforges/gems and SH = 9k spirit if 2 resto shamans, 10-12k if 1 or 0.

People who are asking for advise about something like spirit level generally doesnt have that much knowledge and probably isnt the best player either. That means it is way better if they have 20k spirit than 14k regardless of the fact that 14k probably is better for players that are more skilled.

[nightfalls]

On the topic of giving advise for spirit levels the best piece of advice you can give is EF = full spirit gear with no reforges/gems and SH = 9k spirit if 2 resto shamans, 10-12k if 1 or 0.

I'll second that, for reforging priority typically I did progression with this setup (primarily made for 560+ item level):

EF: Mastery > Spirit > Haste > Crit. If you properly get Spirit/Mastery gear (easily available) and no Crit/Haste then it doesn't matter if you put Mastery > Spirit or the other way around into your reforge tool. You should gem Mastery primarily. On progression I was around 16k+ spirit (18k by the end of progress) which is actually what Pacer has recommended for EF.

SH: Mastery > Haste > Spirit > Crit. That should leave you with Pacer's recommended level of spirit, about 10-11k.

One way you can "on the fly" change your Spirit level is to swap Dysmorphic for Thok's (stacked only) or Nazgrim (spread) if you are lazy, don't want to reforge, and you are swapping r.shamans in and out. Though on many fights where Thok's is unusable (say, Malkorok) I'd recommend Dysmorphic over the other trinkets, no matter what.

---

Typically as I stated earlier, I don't take people who don't have current or at least recent tier pre-nerf Heroic experience seriously in part because in my opinion, healing Heroic modes requires almost a completely different mindset than Normal. The same to a degree can also be said for the other roles.

[Clrg]

SH thok10 hc, should i reforge all my spirit to haste? all my gems are int + mastery, should i change the yellow socket for 320 mastery and keep the red one on int + mastery? the healer setup is Rdruid and Rshammy and we already left the boss at 25% in our first day.

[Xs]

People who are asking for advise about something like spirit level generally doesnt have that much knowledge and probably isnt the best player either. That means it is way better if they have 20k spirit than 14k regardless of the fact that 14k probably is better for players that are more skilled.

I'd argue that giving a high suggested number is going to give them unreasonable expectations, as even with perfect (Spirit>Mastery>Haste) normal mode 2/2 gear you can't get something like 20k w/o things like flat 320 gems in every slot, the Spirit chest enchant or the Flask/Food, at least 16k is something you can expect to get with your first few upgrades and some flex gear, and 14k should be enough for a 3 healer setup 10 man.

[bouchbagfett]

Thought I would chime in with some numbers:

HS-HR-HR-EF is 48k mana. At 25% haste it takes us about 6.38 seconds to cast. That is a mana cost of 37,589 Mp5.

Spirit conversion to combat regen is:
2% of Total Mana + 1.287*Spirit*0.5
Divine Plea is:
Spirit*1.35*3
Meta Gem is about 15% up time and about 1 holy radiance free per proc. 4.5 procs per 2min or 4,050 mp5.

It would take over 43k spirit to be mana neutral with our rotation without the meta gem, 37k spirit with it.

I wrote more about it here. But that is the the general moral of the story. As holy pallies we OOM. We have to plan our play around it and based on raiding comp, encounter, and skill level we have a wide range of workable spirit values. So for new/progression pally healers going full spirit gives you more room for mistakes at the expense of about 10% total output. Nothings free.

[cszsolt3]

Thought I would chime in with some numbers:

HS-HR-HR-EF is 48k mana. At 25% haste it takes us about 6.38 seconds to cast. That is a mana cost of 37,589 Mp5.

Spirit conversion to combat regen is:
2% of Total Mana + 1.287*Spirit*0.5
Divine Plea is:
Spirit*1.35*3
Meta Gem is about 15% up time and about 1 holy radiance free per proc. 4.5 procs per 2min or 4,050 mp5.

It would take over 43k spirit to be mana neutral with our rotation without the meta gem, 37k spirit with it.

I wrote more about it here. But that is the the general moral of the story. As holy pallies we OOM. We have to plan our play around it and based on raiding comp, encounter, and skill level we have a wide range of workable spirit values. So for new/progression pally healers going full spirit gives you more room for mistakes at the expense of about 10% total output. Nothings free.

Your blog is a pretty good read, nice job.

Some people pointed out here that I should be popping holy radiance a lot more often for holy power gain with the EF build. One of the logs I linked though included a dark shaman fight where I healed the harom group, 5 people alltogether. Is holy radiance basically the best value for holy power gain even if the heal only hits a single person? I've personally been popping divine lights onto the beacon tank for EF gain but I guess thats the wrong approach then?

[Xs]

Your blog is a pretty good read, nice job.

Some people pointed out here that I should be popping holy radiance a lot more often for holy power gain with the EF build. One of the logs I linked though included a dark shaman fight where I healed the harom group, 5 people alltogether. Is holy radiance basically the best value for holy power gain even if the heal only hits a single person? I've personally been popping divine lights onto the beacon tank for EF gain but I guess thats the wrong approach then?

If it hits 2 people its better than DL, and remember that its also stacking the shield on people for any accidental slip ups. Its not the 'wrong approach' though, necessarily, it just depends on your options.

[Boilermaker]

I currently have a 525 Holy pally. I'm very new to healing. I use the selfless healer spec, and have been doing decent healing depending on the fight. I currently do not have the best gear for me, but I am working on that. My healing is usually up there with the other healers, unless they're really geared over me. I do around 50k-100k area depedning on the fight. Can you look at my current setup, i do need some enchants, but i'm waiting on better gear for some pieces. My spirit is around 15kish and my intel is around 17kish area. I do not have mana problems. I'm willing to take any advice in case if its needed.

Character: Pullover -stormrage

[Diggy]

I thought I would chime in with my experience regarding the spirit. Currently I run mostly EF with 15.5 k spirit and I'm planning to drop it to 15k (we two heal most of the fights with disc priest with occasional shaman as a third healer) I'm solo healing two tanks and myself on heroic shamans, so I usually drop more haste and go for spirit here since there is a lot to heal though(getting close to 17k spirit on that one). The disc priest in my raid plays a holy paladin (11/14 H if memory serves me right) and he runs with 11 k spirit and keeps telling me to do the same. I have to keep telling him to shut up since he is using SH for majority of fights and they 3 heal most of them.

[Freia]

I thought I would chime in with my experience regarding the spirit. Currently I run mostly EF with 15.5 k spirit and I'm planning to drop it to 15k (we two heal most of the fights with disc priest with occasional shaman as a third healer) I'm solo healing two tanks and myself on heroic shamans, so I usually drop more haste and go for spirit here since there is a lot to heal though(getting close to 17k spirit on that one). The disc priest in my raid plays a holy paladin (11/14 H if memory serves me right) and he runs with 11 k spirit and keeps telling me to do the same. I have to keep telling him to shut up since he is using SH for majority of fights and they 3 heal most of them.

Yea if he can't tell the obvious difference in spirit requirements for the two specs than he isn't worth responding to.