[Prot] Fix my Tanking!

[Deleted]

Hi, so my guild has just started to progress through heroic and I can't help but feel that my DPS is slightly low in some of the fights. Can anyone see anything wrong or anything that I could be doing better across all of the heroic fights, the logs for the first four heroic bosses are below along with my armory.

warcraftlogs.com/reports/3GpKyvWCjzkqgLAw#type=summary&source=8

eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/draenor/Waffless/advanced

Thanks for any advice.

The first thing to note, and this applies to all tanks, is that a tanks main damage source is the amount of vengeance they can accumulate. When you are sitting on nearly one million attack power you are going to be top dps without even knowing correct rotations and what not. If you want to do good damage as a tank, then learn your limits, learn how much you can abuse yourself without dying. Learn the mechanics inside and out and learn what extra damage you can take for vengeance without dying. For example on fallen protectors I purposely receive the armor debuff just so I take more damage as I overgear that fight quite a lot. On a fight like Iron Juggernaut you can switch at 6 flame vents stacks instead of 3, and if you are feeling up to it and have the gear can just fully tank the boss and receive all 12 stacks before going into siege mode, although I have never seen anyone do this in a 10man raid so I would suggest it right now But lets talk about your paladin in particular ^^

You should basically running Glyph of the Alabaster Shield in every fight if the first thing I noticed, might aswell use your empty glyph slot and its probably one of the best for increasing your damage

I know a lot of prot paladins use Holy Prism in 10 man raids, but you will rarely get a chance to use it on cooldown as other things should be coming before it in priority and if you can not use it on cooldown it falls even further behind the other two talents, I normally just stick with Execution Sentence for every fight but I'm lazy and never change it

Your ability priority seems a little strange to me, from both a dps and survivability point of view you should always be using CS and Judge at a higher prio as it will stop the GCD gaps I bet you are getting, and will also let you use Shield of the Righteous more often, which does do a fair bit of damage and because you are using Divine Purpose will also give you more chances to proc it to do even more damage.

If you are only getting hit by one target then your rotation should be CS > Judge > Avenger Shield (with or without proc doesnt effect its position) > Holy Wrath > Hammer of Wrath > Consecration.

This is because the goal is to generate as much holy power as possible, and delaying your CS and Judge by one second is a holy power loss as it is unlikely your Grand Crusader is going to proc in the ~2.5 seconds it takes you to use both CS and Judge. However if it is procing more then once every 2.5 seconds, as in you are tanking like 10 adds, then just spam that shield away

On AoE areas, your prio should be:

Hammer of the Righteous > Consecration/AS (depends on proc rate) > Judge > Holy Wrath > Hammer of Wrath.

However as you have moved judge down the list you are sacrificing survival to do more damage, if you need to you can move Judgement further up the list in order to generate more holy power.

Your tier 6 talent will also be included in there but in varies alot on the fight, which talent you took, vengeance levels and what else is going on, use your own judgement on it but it should *always* be after your Holy Power generators and normally after Holy Wrath too.

On your Immersus kill you didn't use Avenger Shield until nearly 12 seconds into the fight, when really it could be about ~2 seconds, and this is your hardest hitting ability. Instead you used Consecration, which ironically is your weakest hitting ability on single target. Also, keep in mind that all the time its off cooldown, if it procs you waste the "reset cooldown" part of your Grand Crusader, but keep in mind what I said earlier about CS and Judge first

In terms of gear you should be going for 50% haste unbuffed then mastery for survivability, or crit if you don't care about dying or not

Haste is both a damage and survival increase. Mastery is just survival. Crit is just damage. Choose what you want to build but as you are progressing I would suggest you go with the standard Haste>Mastery. Once you can clear all your content without worrying about deaths you can start reforging your mastery to crit just to do more deeps ^^

Maybe you have been unlucky with loot, but get Thok's Tail Tip ASAP.

Anyway good luck with your prot paladin tanking.

P.S If it makes you feel better, currently in WoD beta prot paladins do A LOT of damage, to the point that even with vengeance being removed you can still do 40-50% of the damage in a dungeon Pls no nerfarino (

[trystero]

Your SotR uptime is <25% on Sha Heroic where it should honestly be 60%+ with 17kish haste (no reason to use a second stamina trinket too, so you should have more haste). Hit buttons faster and don't waste holy power...

[Deleted]

Wymarc wow thanks so much for the advice. I have now got execution sentence and the glyph, I actually have thok's tail tip from raiding in ret spec a long time ago so I will be sure to use that. Should I always prioritize shield of the righteous over eternal flame? Or should that change based on the situation?

trystero what do you mean by "don't waste holy power" is there an spell I shouldn't be using that I am?

[trystero]

You did not log with Advanced Combat Logging so I do not know for sure if you are wasting Holy Power, but with such a low SotR uptime I am assuming you are.

SotR is your go-to HP consumer, not eternal flame. Your strength is in preventing damage, not healing it. As a tank it is your job to react to damage intake. This means knowing when it is appropriate to use EF. Times it's appropriate: you have no EF up and are actively tanking the boss (although not always). You will die if you do not cast EF for the boosted heal. In preparation of handling a mechanic/ability e.g. Blackfuse is about to cast Electrostatic charge and you are not at full health, EF so you do not die from its application even with a CD. If you're taking normal damage and casting EF over SotR, you're definitely doing it wrong.

[MerinPally]

CS-J-X-CS-X-J-CS -X-X

That's your rotation, X is a filler. The rest has already been said, that SHOTR uptime is indicative of not hitting buttons enough or using the wrong ones. You have 4 set, just use Eternal Flame when you hit 5 stacks of Bastion or you really need to, use SHOTR at almost all other times. Few exceptions like if you really really need to use it on yourself or someone else in order to prevent death but that doesn't happen often.

[Deleted]

Wymarc wow thanks so much for the advice. I have now got execution sentence and the glyph, I actually have thok's tail tip from raiding in ret spec a long time ago so I will be sure to use that. Should I always prioritize shield of the righteous over eternal flame? Or should that change based on the situation?

trystero what do you mean by "don't waste holy power" is there an spell I shouldn't be using that I am?

As you are using the 4set, you should be able to get 5 stacks of Bastion of Glory in the time it takes for your previous Eternal Flame to run out, and as it is free you wont be using three holy power on it which you can then use to start gaining Bastion stacks again. When it comes to spending your holy power you should always press SotR, as once you have 3 stacks of Bastion from SotR, Eternal Flame is free anyway, and you dont need to use Holy Power to cast it. Obviously if you are about to die with no cooldowns then just heal yourself regardless of your stacks.

Normal circumstances would mean you go:
Sotr>Sotr>Sotr>Sotr>Sotr>EF

However once you are past your third SotR it is acceptable to cast Eternal Flame at any point past that. You need to judge if you can do another two SotR to get the extra heal later, or if you need the heal right now but sacrifice the extra boost from the extra stacks of Bastion of Glory. Find a way of tracking Eternal Flame strength, there are addons and weakauras for it out there. In general anything over 200k per tick is an ok strength, the highest the better of course ^^

Execution Sentence will not always be the best ability to use, im just lazy and dont change it. However, is you use it keep in mind that it does snapshot. It will do its total damage based on your attack power when you cast it, and any changes of attack power during it duration will not alter its damage, so try and cast it at high-ish vengeance to max the damage it does, cause otherwise it hits like a wet noodle

[Deja Thoris]

I don't agree at all with someone using ES if they are starting heroic progression now. Lights hammer and holy prism offer so much more utility. ES is a 1 min CD and the damage it does is piss poor. The only time I ever take it is on siegecrafter because its instrumental in killing the add in the 5 seconds after DFA.

Immerseus, LH for adds or holy prism for a snap heal after he emerges
Protectors, hammer for adds in bubble / gloom etc or h prism for the same
Noru prism for snap raid heals
Sha go either and same with galakras etc.

I just don't see the value of ES. A better rotation will help someone more than that shitty 1 min CD.

@the person that asked, your 2 biggest prios should be improving the shotr uptime and actually using CD's like DP (you used in once in almost 10 min on protectors)

[Deleted]

I don't agree at all with someone using ES if they are starting heroic progression now. Lights hammer and holy prism offer so much more utility. ES is a 1 min CD and the damage it does is piss poor. The only time I ever take it is on siegecrafter because its instrumental in killing the add in the 5 seconds after DFA.

Immerseus, LH for adds or holy prism for a snap heal after he emerges
Protectors, hammer for adds in bubble / gloom etc or h prism for the same
Noru prism for snap raid heals
Sha go either and same with galakras etc.

I just don't see the value of ES. A better rotation will help someone more than that shitty 1 min CD.

@the person that asked, your 2 biggest prios should be improving the shotr uptime and actually using CD's like DP (you used in once in almost 10 min on protectors)

The utility of Light's Hammer is questionable at best on any fight that isn't Thok, and Holy Prism completely drowns in the mass of smart heals in 25-man. ES is a perfectly viable choice on, at the very least, Norushen, Sha, Iron Juggernaut, Malkorok, Thok, Siegecrafter, Paragons and Garrosh.

Holy Prism is arguably better on a bunch of fights if you know how to work a /targetlasttarget macro to self-cast it without having to spend time switching targets, and utility-wise it certainly shines in 10-man, but for pure DPS ES comes out inarguably ahead on basically every fight that isn't cleave even with suboptimal snapshotting. Claiming that ES does piss-poor damage is just flat-out wrong - however much you dislike it, you should know better than to claim that when a properly snapshotted ES can easily tick for 4-5 million in total.

[Deleted]

Keep in mind that he asked for an increase in his dps, as he felt he wasnt doing enough, and as ES snapshots it is generally the biggest increase in DPS. I did say before they it isnt always the best choice and I just keep it cause im lazy and dont bother switching talents. Holy Prism is worthless to me as I raid 25man and it over heals like 90% even if I try and time it with damage intake of the raid. You are also required to use it on cooldown in order to get the most optimal use out of it, and half the time other stuff should be coming ahead of it in your priority so it can sit off cooldown for over 5 seconds easily.

However having said that, Execution Sentence has zero utility ties to it as you'd be silly to use it as a heal, and whilst progressing on heroic the other talents may offer better raid utility at the cost of damage, but Waffless asked for damage, and damage is what ES does

[Deleted]

Palas are nerfed in WoD ?

[Deleted]

Palas are nerfed in WoD ?

Right now their self healing got gutted by their damage was increased. Obviously open to changes though ^^
There is a topic for that subject already though

[Pickwickman]

Palas are nerfed in WoD ?

All tanks survivability got nerfed; and all tanks base DPS (without vengeance) got buffed.

Pala/Warrior probably going to be best tanks in the first tier.

[Deleted]

Hello, I was looking for some help in reviewing our Protection Paladin's performance during our latest raid. The person is a re-roll from Warlock so is fairly new to the tanking scene. Normally I review the person myself, however I have no clue about Prot Paladins. From a healing point of view he felt fine to heal and suggestions or tips posted below will be past onto the person to hopefully improve them and improve our raiding overall. I cannot however post logs, so if you have a chance please go to Warcraft logs and search Quelm on EU-Nagrand. Looking at the logs from the 27/08.

Armoury is: Sacredshield Eu-Nagrand

Thanks for your help.

[Deleted]

Over a quick glance:
- a bit under hit cap and expertise cap, and althought you don't have to be expertise hard capped [it's more of a convenience], hit cap is an absolute must.
- trinket from Klaxxi is terribad for protadin that isn't haste capped [21250 rating]. It's only useful when you don't need more mastery and are capped without Thok's. Tell him to get trinket from Thok or Horridon [even LFR would be better] asap.

I can't into logs, so just looked at random Blackfuse wipe.
Why is he using Prism and not Execution Sentence? The mediocre healing Prism does is nothing in the sea of smart heals 25s have - and ES would kill Shredder during his stun. Pop 3-HP EF on yourself for 9% damage boost from glyph [didn't see it in his buffs] 1-2sec before Death from Above cast, then 1sec into the cast pop ES on Shredder and watch him die in 1-2 ticks after he falls to the ground. Also, I can see him using Divine Protection glyph - don't, not on Blackfuse. Aaand his SotR uptime is, I think, quite low [~45%], but there's quite a lot of running around, so won't comment on that - but I noticed that, in the beginning of the fight, it took him close to 2sec to cast judgment after Holy Prism, so I guess he just needs to mash those buttons faster.

[Deleted]

Hello, I was looking for some help in reviewing our Protection Paladin's performance during our latest raid. The person is a re-roll from Warlock so is fairly new to the tanking scene. Normally I review the person myself, however I have no clue about Prot Paladins. From a healing point of view he felt fine to heal and suggestions or tips posted below will be past onto the person to hopefully improve them and improve our raiding overall. I cannot however post logs, so if you have a chance please go to Warcraft logs and search Quelm on EU-Nagrand. Looking at the logs from the 27/08.

Armoury is: Sacredshield Eu-Nagrand

Thanks for your help.

He currently has a 1:1 ratio between CS and J, which means he's favouring J over CS when he should be doing the opposite; this is costing him a non-negligible amount of Holy Power. He also criminally underuses Holy Wrath (his hardest hitting ability on single-target fights) and makes questionable T90 talent choices - i.e taking Light's Hammer on Iron Juggernaut when ideally he should be taking ES; maybe Holy Prism if your healers really suck at their jobs and he has to do part of it for them.

Other than that his CD usage is pretty OK (hugely important for Prot since we have nowhere near 100% uptime on AM), and his EF usage looks passable as well. I personally think his DPS numbers are absolutely embarrassingly awful for a tank, but I suppose they're passable if someone else is hogging all the vengeance and he's just the debuff bitch.

[Deleted]

DPS numbers are absolutely embarrassingly awful for a tank, but I suppose they're passable if someone else is hogging all the vengeance and he's just the debuff bitch.

I dont think he is running the focused shield glyph which wont be helping, also execution sentence.

[Deleted]

Hello, I was looking for some help in reviewing our Protection Paladin's performance during our latest raid. The person is a re-roll from Warlock so is fairly new to the tanking scene. Normally I review the person myself, however I have no clue about Prot Paladins. From a healing point of view he felt fine to heal and suggestions or tips posted below will be past onto the person to hopefully improve them and improve our raiding overall. I cannot however post logs, so if you have a chance please go to Warcraft logs and search Quelm on EU-Nagrand. Looking at the logs from the 27/08.

Armoury is: Sacredshield Eu-Nagrand

Thanks for your help.

I was looking at the events view for Iron Juggernaught and by the looks he has the standard rotation wrong.

Judge is prio'd too much, and so is consecration. He was using Lights Hammer instead of ES. Consecration should be LAST on single target, but he is casting it before Holy Wrath and his t90 talent. Others may disagree but unless you are doing spoils or Galakras you should basically always use ES (Execution Sentence). Holy Prism has zero place in a 25hc raid as its going to do 95% overhealing, and you dont have enough spare GCD's to use it on cooldown so it falls behind even more.

Also tell him to macro his engineer gloves and his t90 together, make sure gloves cast first so it snapshots his ES slightly.

[celinamuna]

I was looking at the events view for Iron Juggernaught and by the looks he has the standard rotation wrong.

Judge is prio'd too much, and so is consecration. He was using Lights Hammer instead of ES. Consecration should be LAST on single target, but he is casting it before Holy Wrath and his t90 talent. Others may disagree but unless you are doing spoils or Galakras you should basically always use ES (Execution Sentence). Holy Prism has zero place in a 25hc raid as its going to do 95% overhealing, and you dont have enough spare GCD's to use it on cooldown so it falls behind even more.

Also tell him to macro his engineer gloves and his t90 together, make sure gloves cast first so it snapshots his ES slightly.

ST cons is still one of the highest DPE abilities we have.
I will disagree on using ES, i will disagree on spare gcds, and it's not going to 95% overhealing (at least from a number of times i've tested it in pugs)

[Deleted]

ST cons is still one of the highest DPE abilities we have.
I will disagree on using ES, i will disagree on spare gcds, and it's not going to 95% overhealing (at least from a number of times i've tested it in pugs)

The issue with Cons is that if you use it on CD (and this guy basically is), you'll get overlapping Consecrations... and Consecration doesn't stack. If he's prioritizing Consecration over Holy Wrath, then he's doing it wrong.

FWIW Wymarc is also 100% right about Holy Prism in 25-mans. It's a great spell in 10s, and a fucking awful choice in 25s. I spent weeks checking efficiency after transitioning from 10 to 25 after progress was over, and I don't recall ever seeing Holy Prism with an overheal percentage of less than 80. It's only ever really good if you use it for the DPS, in which case you need a /targetlasttarget macro to make best use of it.

[Promdates]

I don't recall ever seeing Holy Prism with an overheal percentage of less than 80. It's only ever really good if you use it for the DPS, in which case you need a /targetlasttarget macro to make best use of it.

This is pretty much it. To get the damage benefit of it, you need to do a /tar *self /targetlasttarget macro. But you're generally going to have an 80%+ overheal on it, even if you use it in situations where you just target the boss first and cast it... it's still about 80%+ overheal.