Gaza rocket fire resumes

[soulcrusher]

Indeed, Israel tries to minimize casualties, and even treats Gazans here in Israel. But those who are against Israel will twist it to fit their agenda (there's a fine example of this specific issue a few pages back).

the palestinians should be grateful the israelis steal their land, wall them up in ghettos and murder them so nicely. how dare they be upset about it.

Infracted.

[Deleted]

Assuming you're even correct (you're not), how does a blowing up a civilian bus constitute "fighting back"?

They're terrorists using terrorist tactics, that's how they "fight back" (in their mind at least). If they had modern weaponry and an organized military, they'd probably fight very differently. But they don't have those things, so this is what they do. I don't believe for a second this conflict can be won with violence, it's been tried for decades. The only way to solve it is to make the Palestinians not want to attack Israelis, and bombing their land to stone age is going to do the complete opposite and raise yet another radicalized generation.

[Amalisa]

Yes exactly, that's what I see going on constantly. Miss information and people twisting things. Propaganda. Yahoo had a picture of kids running to a bomb shelter and said something like "look at the arabs running" and it was clearly in israel. (all the signs around them were in hebrew.)
I just heard that a rocket hit just 15 minute drive from where I am as I type this. nobody was injured as it hit an empty area of land. But still very scary...

[soulcrusher]

Once the jihadists have taken over in syria, no doubt armed to the teeth with western supplied equipment, watch the security situation in the region deteriorate further. maybe america seeing as theyre so keen would like to offer an "uninhabited" part of texas for the israelis to relocate to?

[Holtzmann]

Ah, current live reports are saying about 21 injured.

Indeed, Israel tries to minimize casualties, and even treats Gazans here in Israel. But those who are against Israel will twist it to fit their agenda (there's a fine example of this specific issue a few pages back).

The problem is that minimizing casualties still results in casualties.

If it bleeds, it leads as I used to hear back when I studied journalism. Both sides are doing bad things (I think we can all agree civilians dying, regardless of where they come from, is a Bad Thing™) regardless of their motives being justified or not. That only gives pundits and spinners from both sides more material for the media war without helping the civilian populations one bit.

[Holas]

I think all the points discussed here can be summed (more or less) in 3 major points:

1. Who is entitled to the land of Israel/Palestine
2.The methods Hamas/IDF use fighting (civilian casualties)
3. What can we do now? / How can we achieve peace?


I believe :

1. Jews are entitled to the land of Israel mainly because it was the Jews land for 3000 years and the "palestinians" (which are NOT "pleshtim" mentioned in the bible -those are red haired greeks (i think) that are long gone). "palestinians" are arabs from egypt ,jordan and saudi arab that came to Israel in 1832 or so and think they should claim the land. (more or less like the muslims in France will want to claim France in few years and say its "holy" to the Islam and will want to drive all french people out of there - which im pretty sure will start happening soon enough. not only there -in whole europe. Have fun with it.).

2. I think its already a concensus that Hammas targeting civilians (they also claim it). Some think the IDF does the same. I already posted a reply with number of attacks and how many you could kill with those attacks we done already (~100,000 dead palesitiniens). You think because some civilians died it means "IDF taget civilians?" - go and do a research on "civilian casualty ratio" and youll see that NO other army in the world have such low numbers EVEN though Hamas "brave" warriors hides in kindergardens and fires from heavily populated regions (in order to cause civilian casualties). There are ALWAYS civilians hurt in a war - sorry it comes as a shock to you.

But you know what -it does not matter if we agree or disagree on those points. Point number 3 is the most important as it determines if whether we should keep talking.

3. Israel is willing to give the palestinians a state in one condition -that they live in peace next to Israel and wont try to bomb it/occupy Israel.

Hammas wants: ALL Jews removed from ENTIRE Israel , OR - all Jews dead.

So its pretty simple - if you support Hamas - we have nothing to talk about. If you do not understand my right to live -why should i even bother to convince you on anything? All i can do is kill you if you try to kill me. Because if only one of us can be alive (according to you) my personal preferences it will be me.
And if the people of Gaza support hamas then im sorry but i dont "feel" for them. An entire (or majority) population wants to kill another one - that does not gain my sympathy (especially when im one of the population they want to kill).

[Amalisa]

I think all the points discussed here can be summed (more or less) in 3 major points:

1. Who is entitled to the land of Israel/Palestine
2.The methods Hamas/IDF use fighting (civilian casualties)
3. What can we do now? / How can we achieve peace?


I believe :

1. Jews are entitled to the land of Israel mainly because it was the Jews land for 3000 years and the "palestinians" (which are NOT "pleshtim" mentioned in the bible -those are red haired greeks (i think) that are long gone). "palestinians" are arabs from egypt ,jordan and saudi arab that came to Israel in 1832 or so and think they should claim the land. (more or less like the muslims in France will want to claim France in few years and say its "holy" to the Islam and will want to drive all french people out of there - which im pretty sure will start happening soon enough. not only there -in whole europe. Have fun with it.).

2. I think its already a concensus that Hammas targeting civilians (they also claim it). Some think the IDF does the same. I already posted a reply with number of attacks and how many you could kill with those attacks we done already (~100,000 dead palesitiniens). You think because some civilians died it means "IDF taget civilians?" - go and do a research on "civilian casualty ratio" and youll see that NO other army in the world have such low numbers EVEN though Hamas "brave" warriors hides in kindergardens and fires from heavily populated regions (in order to cause civilian casualties). There are ALWAYS civilians hurt in a war - sorry it comes as a shock to you.

But you know what -it does not matter if we agree or disagree on those points. Point number 3 is the most important as it determines if whether we should keep talking.

3. Israel is willing to give the palestinians a state in one condition -that they live in peace next to Israel and wont try to bomb it/occupy Israel.

Hammas wants: ALL Jews removed from ENTIRE Israel , OR - all Jews dead.

So its pretty simple - if you support Hamas - we have nothing to talk about. If you do not understand my right to live -why should i even bother to convince you on anything? All i can do is kill you if you try to kill me. Because if only one of us can be alive (according to you) my personal preferences it will be me.
And if the people of Gaza support hamas then im sorry but i dont "feel" for them. An entire (or majority) population wants to kill another one - that does not gain my sympathy (especially when im one of the population they want to kill).

You sir/ma'am have won the most educated post of the thread. I am so happy to see such an educated post. Thank you for making my day.

[Holtzmann]

I think all the points discussed here can be summed (more or less) in 3 major points:

1. Who is entitled to the land of Israel/Palestine
2.The methods Hamas/IDF use fighting (civilian casualties)
3. What can we do now? / How can we achieve peace?


I believe :

1. Jews are entitled to the land of Israel mainly because it was the Jews land for 3000 years and the "palestinians" (which are NOT "pleshtim" mentioned in the bible -those are red haired greeks (i think) that are long gone). "palestinians" are arabs from egypt ,jordan and saudi arab that came to Israel in 1832 or so and think they should claim the land. (more or less like the muslims in France will want to claim France in few years and say its "holy" to the Islam and will want to drive all french people out of there - which im pretty sure will start happening soon enough. not only there -in whole europe. Have fun with it.).

2. I think its already a concensus that Hammas targeting civilians (they also claim it). Some think the IDF does the same. I already posted a reply with number of attacks and how many you could kill with those attacks we done already (~100,000 dead palesitiniens). You think because some civilians died it means "IDF taget civilians?" - go and do a research on "civilian casualty ratio" and youll see that NO other army in the world have such low numbers EVEN though Hamas "brave" warriors hides in kindergardens and fires from heavily populated regions (in order to cause civilian casualties). There are ALWAYS civilians hurt in a war - sorry it comes as a shock to you.

But you know what -it does not matter if we agree or disagree on those points. Point number 3 is the most important as it determines if whether we should keep talking.

3. Israel is willing to give the palestinians a state in one condition -that they live in peace next to Israel and wont try to bomb it/occupy Israel.

Hammas wants: ALL Jews removed from ENTIRE Israel , OR - all Jews dead.

So its pretty simple - if you support Hamas - we have nothing to talk about. If you do not understand my right to live -why should i even bother to convince you on anything? All i can do is kill you if you try to kill me. Because if only one of us can be alive (according to you) my personal preferences it will be me.
And if the people of Gaza support hamas then im sorry but i dont "feel" for them. An entire (or majority) population wants to kill another one - that does not gain my sympathy (especially when im one of the population they want to kill).

Well, someone has to give. Since Israelis have a very keen interest on staying alive, it's going to have to be Hamas.

The question is, are all the bombs in the world going to stop an organization that gets more popular support the more you attack it? Those idiots can't be uprooted militarily unless you uproot the entire society they are hidden inside. Leaders can be killed, but there will always be a nutjob ready to take their place and eventually become a "martyr" himself. The only way out of that clusterfuck is convincing the population itself that they can be safe and prosperous with Israel as their neighbor and without Hamas. That would take a lot of time and even more goodwill from both parties, so it seems unlikely it'll ever happen.

[Bakis]

Assuming you're even correct (you're not), how does a blowing up a civilian bus constitute "fighting back"?

Only way they can fight back, as sad and wrong as it may be.

[Reeve]

Only way they can fight back, as sad and wrong as it may be.

I dunno Bakis. Seems like if you're going to fight back, it would make more sense to sabotage the property developments or kill the property developers rather than blowing up a bus.

Not that I'm advocating either of those things. Just seems like it would be more effective than targeting random civilians.

[Liara]

Only way they can fight back, as sad and wrong as it may be.

I think that fighting the IDF would make a lot more sense. And they can (and sometimes do).
After all, blowing up a bus accomplishes nothing other than aggravating the wrath of Israel. It doesn't actually hamper (practically, not emotionally) our side of the conflict. Killing soldiers would (though I'd rather they avoid both of these things).

[Deleted]

I think that fighting the IDF would make a lot more sense. And they can (and sometimes do).
After all, blowing up a bus accomplishes nothing other than aggravating the wrath of Israel. It doesn't actually hamper (practically, not emotionally) our side of the conflict. Killing soldiers would (though I'd rather they avoid both of these things).

You know what would make even more sense? If both sides would lower their weapons a lived together in peace But I guess that sadly ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

[Liara]

You know what would make even more sense? If both sides would lower their weapons a lived together in peace But I guess that sadly ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

Well, naturally
But that indeed doesn't look like it's going to happen.

[Wikiy]

I think that fighting the IDF would make a lot more sense. And they can (and sometimes do).
After all, blowing up a bus accomplishes nothing other than aggravating the wrath of Israel. It doesn't actually hamper (practically, not emotionally) our side of the conflict. Killing soldiers would (though I'd rather they avoid both of these things).

What makes you think they don't want to aggravate Israel to the point that it does something that would be in clear violation of international law and rules of war?

[Reeve]

According to the Palestinian Center for Human Rights (take that as you will), 91 out of the 136 killed in airstrikes so far were civilian, and 922 out of the 941 injured were civilian. That's 67% of those killed civilian and 98% if those injured. The numbers I'm sure are out of date by now, even if you want to take the word of an organization whose purpose is to cry foul over the killing of civilians.

[Liara]

What makes you think they don't want to aggravate Israel to the point that it does something that would be in clear violation of international law and rules of war?

Well, considering that if Israel does do something that violates international law and rules of war it will probably amount to Hamas being completely obliterated, I don't see how the ensuing anger from the world would be of any help to them.

[arth]

This pretty much sums of whats happening

[soulcrusher]

Well, considering that if Israel does do something that violates international law and rules of war it will probably amount to Hamas being completely obliterated, I don't see how the ensuing anger from the world would be of any help to them.

probably the only time ive agreed with Liar in this thread but exactly what she said. Saddam Hussein had 2 broken UN resolutions and we know what happened to him. Israel has something like 166. they dont care, theyll carry on bombing and killing to get what they want regardless of public opinion. unconditional support (IE UN security council veto) from a declining superpower lets them get away with it time after time.

[ati87]

[QUOTE=Holas;19172545]
Jews are entitled to the land of Israel mainly because it was the Jews land for 3000 years and the "palestinians" (which are NOT "pleshtim" mentioned in the bible -those are red haired greeks (i think) that are long gone). "palestinians" are arabs from egypt ,jordan and saudi arab that came to Israel in 1832 or so and think they should claim the land. (more or less like the muslims in France will want to claim France in few years and say its "holy" to the Islam and will want to drive all french people out of there - which im pretty sure will start happening soon enough. not only there -in whole europe. Have fun with it.).

/QUOTE]

First I really question the accuracy of your statement that the arabs came in 1832 to that area... afterall the Ottomans where in control over the middle east from the 16th century till the end of ww1. If your going to argue that during that time people from different regions moved and intermarried as a argument that the current Palestinians have no right then I honestly can't even be bothered with arguing against you're logic.

Before 1948 people that have historically been called Palestinians lived their, this includes Muslims, Jews and Christians (who btw are also suppressed by the state of Israel). However after doing something unheard of and against and going against the founding of the UN the UN itself decided to give away somebody else it's country. And I will say this again it is of no importance that their was no sovereign state because this argument insult allot of people that have suffered by European immigration.

[QUOTE=Holas;19172545]
I think its already a concensus that Hammas targeting civilians (they also claim it). Some think the IDF does the same. I already posted a reply with number of attacks and how many you could kill with those attacks we done already (~100,000 dead palesitiniens). You think because some civilians died it means "IDF taget civilians?" - go and do a research on "civilian casualty ratio" and youll see that NO other army in the world have such low numbers EVEN though Hamas "brave" warriors hides in kindergardens and fires from heavily populated regions (in order to cause civilian casualties). There are ALWAYS civilians hurt in a war - sorry it comes as a shock to you.
/QUOTE]

If you wish Hamans to stop attacking civilians then I suggest you give them fighter plains, drones and high tech rockets.

And in return maybe Israel can stop destroying the infrastructure, airports, harbour, school (UN sponsored schools at the very least), news buildings, random people's houses.

Does Hamas target Israel civilians....yes, but that is the way the weaker party has to fight since they don't posses the means to fight army directly. And do they return home after at the end of the day.....yes because Hamans members are normal people and don't live in a army base.

[QUOTE=Holas;19172545]

3. Israel is willing to give the palestinians a state in one condition -that they live in peace next to Israel and wont try to bomb it/occupy Israel.
/QUOTE]

Can you even give a single thing/event israel did to reach a agreement???

Every time their are talks Israel goes ahead and sabotage it (reason why Obama doesn't like the Israel government) a
But usually the response Israel government gives is that they don't want pre-conditions like not expending the occupation....(demolishing Palestinian homes and building Israel homes).

[Liara]

probably the only time ive agreed with Liar in this thread but exactly what she said. Saddam Hussein had 2 broken UN resolutions and we know what happened to him. Israel has something like 166. they dont care, theyll carry on bombing and killing to get what they want regardless of public opinion. unconditional support (IE UN security council veto) from a declining superpower lets them get away with it time after time.

Not even remotely close to what I was saying, sorry.