How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Elegiac]

I think you're in the wrong thread ... this is the discussion about a bluepost stating they wanted to bring more incentives for 25s ...

Really? Well here's my input; the blues haven't had a good idea since LFR.

The fact of the matter is that 25 mans are unattractive for the same reason that 40 mans were unattractive. No difference in content, no extra reward, but a lot of additional hassle. There is no way to incentivize 25 mans without disadvantaging 10 mans. Ergo, the solution becomes to simply introduce a uniform raid size. No fuss, no muss.

[Katfish]

Because 25s spend so much more time talking about tactics and dividing up loot, they take longer to kill a boss because all that time talking adds up.
25s also tend to have a lower skill level when compare with the top 10 players so, as a group, they take longer than those 10 players would if they went alone.

As such 25s take a longer time to progress through the bosses. As a result, the top players don't gear up as quickly as they would if they split off. In effect, they gear up only as quickly as the least skilled players can progress and since it is easier to skew the skill level in your favor in 10s, 25s gear slower.

EJL

lol There are mods that make the handing out loot easy and I'm almost sure majority of 25m use some sort of loot system. So that part is false or can be false using mods already out there. Also, most guilds aren't able to hand pick 10 best ppl out of a pool of 30 members so that point is sorta moot. Now if 25m guild was putting a 10m together then that would be true for them, but not majority of 10m guilds have that perk.

[Deleted]

Really? Well here's my input; the blues haven't had a good idea since LFR.

The fact of the matter is that 25 mans are unattractive for the same reason that 40 mans were unattractive. No difference in content, no extra reward, but a lot of additional hassle. There is no way to incentivize 25 mans without disadvantaging 10 mans. Ergo, the solution becomes to simply introduce a uniform raid size. No fuss, no muss.

Yeah that is you opinion and you should post it in some thread where it belongs.

[Raelbo]

Yes. Really the only 'solution' is making a uniform raid size.

That is about as viable a solution as suggesting that two mothers claiming ownership of a baby cut the baby in half...

[Deleted]

please give an argument that is not based on 25/10 man fanboy crap

Because F*ck 25 man raiding! Thats why!

you see what you did there?

[Deleted]

you see what you did there?

I need to remind myself that i have to write the word: IRONY! before every sentence out of context so that everybody is able to understand the point I am trying to make

I am sorry

[Nebria]

on our server the best 25man raiding guild changed to 10 man because they couldn't find enough really good players to compensate for the members who quit before mop. (paragon had some similar issues if you remember) so more loot wouldn't change their mind I'm sure. You already have itemization drawbacks in 10 man compared to 25man. you get less loot per boss and so a decreased chance something is dropping that is needed in the raid.
our ds raid had some paladin token lootid. while the paladins got there 2nd equip complete others had trouble to get their first set complete. or that during a whole tier you haven't seen some single items dropping. so for me giving 25man raids even more loot is not the solution it is more like a "force/pressure" to do 25 man.
I liked the idea of an additional coin in 25 simply because is is still a small chance only so it wouldn't affect the majority which means it is not a true advantage over 10man only some bonus/nice to have. and this is what 25man should get. something nice to have for their "effort" if at all.

[Oxyra]

Yet another poster that completely misses the reasons why the old LK model was abandoned.


Split lockouts caused issues because it led to double dipping on loot rooting which compromised Blizzards game balancing and had the minor issue of creating an obligation to raid multiple times per week. It'd be relatively easy for it to be brought back, but you'd need to take steps to remove the likely abuses possible and address the concerns Blizzard had.


That that obligation is gone is good. That that balance issue is gone, is good. That you can't PuG is bad...it is also avoidable via LFR or alts. Not totally satisfactory to some, I know but LFR gives you the "raid in an easier format with friends" and levelling alts isn't that difficult or time consuming.


Higher iLevel loot in 25s will kill 10s so even suggesting it is a total non-starter. Its what led to 10s being second rate also-rans. Different coloration is a different reward which again people will go for just for the reward...especially with transmog.


None of his solutions are new. None of his solutions are viable because all of his solutions don't address the reasons for the changes that came in with Cata.





No, actually it isn't wasting much.


It has to develop the art and mechanics and lore and sound and video regardless of the format it uses. The rest is the minor issue of tuning to the various formats.


EJL

Did you even look at the graph since they removed the double lockout?

http://i.imgur.com/Pju1d.png

I'll link it again just for you

[Raelbo]

Have yet to see one person come up with a sound and fair solution.

I would say the reason for this is that the "unfairness" of it actually has nothing to do with the game at all.

What makes the situation unfair for 25 man raiders is that no one wants to play with them. Those people would rather be playing 10 man. Forcing people to raid 25 man when they would rather be raiding 10 man, to make the 25 man raiders happy would absolutely not be fair.

This is the brutal truth that all proponents of 25 man raiding, including the Blizzard devs need to own up to. Most people raid 10 man because deep down, all things considered, they prefer raiding with 9 other people rather than 24 other people.

It .. is .. that .. simple.

I don't deny that many folks raid 10 man because of the "logistics" of 25 man raiding. However what a lot of people tend to forget is that this only happens because those people have no real desire to raid 25 man in the first place.

This excuse that many have of: "I want to raid 25 man but I can't because of logistics" is a blatant lie. Yes it is human nature to take the path of least resistance to get what we want. That does not, however, explain why people who claim to want to raid 25 man are raiding 10 man. Clearly these people don't actually want to raid 25 man at all.

If the ease of getting the loot is more important to you than participating in a 25 man raid team, then clearly you don't actually prefer 25 man raiding. Such people like the idea of 25 man raiding, and possibly some aspects of it, but not enough IMO to warrant taking special steps to save 25 man raiding.

If you raid 25 man because of better loot, fancier titles, bigger shinier mounts, greater prestige, a desire for a harder challenge, then I'm sorry, you don't prefer 25 man raiding.

[Oxyra]

I would say the reason for this is that the "unfairness" of it actually has nothing to do with the game at all.

What makes the situation unfair for 25 man raiders is that no one wants to play with them. Those people would rather be playing 10 man. Forcing people to raid 25 man when they would rather be raiding 10 man, to make the 25 man raiders happy would absolutely not be fair.

This is the brutal truth that all proponents of 25 man raiding, including the Blizzard devs need to own up to. Most people raid 10 man because deep down, all things considered, they prefer raiding with 9 other people rather than 24 other people.

It .. is .. that .. simple.

I don't deny that many folks raid 10 man because of the "logistics" of 25 man raiding. However what a lot of people tend to forget is that this only happens because those people have no real desire to raid 25 man in the first place.

This excuse that many have of: "I want to raid 25 man but I can't because of logistics" is a blatant lie. Yes it is human nature to take the path of least resistance to get what we want. That does not, however, explain why people who claim to want to raid 25 man are raiding 10 man. Clearly these people don't actually want to raid 25 man at all.

If the ease of getting the loot is more important to you than participating in a 25 man raid team, then clearly you don't actually prefer 25 man raiding. Such people like the idea of 25 man raiding, and possibly some aspects of it, but not enough IMO to warrant taking special steps to save 25 man raiding.

If you raid 25 man because of better loot, fancier titles, bigger shinier mounts, greater prestige, a desire for a harder challenge, then I'm sorry, you don't prefer 25 man raiding.

I don't think an argument between 10/25 preferences is the big deal here. They could make it 10/20 8/16/24, anything, it wouldn't matter.
The issue is the data that shows, based on WoW player base minus China, we have approximately 35% of players raiding in Wrath.
Drops down to about 20% in Cata with steady decline.
Drops down to about 10% in MoP.

I'll link it again for you.
http://i.imgur.com/Pju1d.png

And you'll notice with the Wrath statistics that I IGNORED ALL 10MAN KILLS. AND THERE'S STILL ~DOUBLE THE NUMBER OF PLAYERS.
I'm sure there's people in Wrath that in those statistics were mutually exclusive as 10man.
And we're discarding that data.

[Hipnos14]

Well, it might not seem like much, but...

With the new ilvl upgrades through valor coming in 5.1, 10mans could drop the current standard item (496 / 509), and 25's could drop the fully upgraded equivalent (504/517). What it would mean is that as a payoff for the extra logistical work of running 25man, you get to avoid the extra work of needing to chain cap valor with dailies every week.

10's would still get equal quality loot, but would need the extra step.

Just a random thought that came into my head, might be terrible.

I love this, if you raid 10 you can get the same ItemLvL but you will need more time. I would add one more loot for 10man, I think that now 10man bosses only drop 2 items, 3 would be better with the "ItemLvL" buff to 25.

[Deleted]

I don't think an argument between 10/25 preferences is the big deal here. They could make it 10/20 8/16/24, anything, it wouldn't matter.
The issue is the data that shows, based on WoW player base minus China, we have approximately 35% of players raiding in Wrath.
Drops down to about 20% in Cata with steady decline.
Drops down to about 10% in MoP.

I'll link it again for you.
http://i.imgur.com/Pju1d.png

And you'll notice with the Wrath statistics that I IGNORED ALL 10MAN KILLS. AND THERE'S STILL ~DOUBLE THE NUMBER OF PLAYERS.
I'm sure there's people in Wrath that in those statistics were mutually exclusive as 10man.
And we're discarding that data.

Explained by difficulty and lack of people ready to raid. Loads of people are still struggling to kill stone guards, it's got a 90% failure rate or something mad like that. Once again the raids are tuned a bit too high for the average player - wait until the debuffs kick in and check again.

[eschatological]

Also, a 25 man raid in ICC rarely went past Saurfang. Why don't you do that same chart tracking the end boss kills in the tiers, see how that lines up?

[JuicedawgYO]

All the 10man kids will see how fast the game ultimately dies when 25man dies completely within the near future, the day where the last 25man guild disband, no one will give jackshit about WoW pve anymore, you most likely disagree now, but we will see who is right. Make seperate raid lockouts in 10 and 25man and make it so 25man drop better loot like it used to do. Nothing else will help on the situation, sorry to say. Sad thing is that the majority of "raiders" raid 10man nowadays and the majority usually gets to decide what happens, even though they are retarded. For making a 10man raid you can get your small group of friends together and get a few more in, for a healthy 25man roster you need 30+ players, don't try to tell me that 10man is anywhere near as hard to set up as 25man, if you do you are stupid and very very naive, straight up.

And the raids are not too heavy tuned for "the casual player", get real, if you wan't to hit a stand-still target like a patchwerk fight then go to lfr or to a training dummy and get good, seriously. Walking over the road and shopping food in the store is more challenging than normal mode raids atm.

[janett1]

You're not going to get a 'fair' assessment on this due to everyones different preferences. If you add something to 25 mans, the people who do 10s will cry.
If you add separate lock outs, people will cry that they 'HAVE' to do multiple raids. (You don't, there's always a choice. If you were in a guild pushing for ranks you would be quite happy to run them anyway so sit down Jonny, this doesn't affect you in anyway.)

The only incentive they could realistically implement is separate 'Realm First!' achievements. One for 10s, one for 25s. I don't care if they share the same titles. In reality, they are the only things guilds are concerned with, nothing else. Yes it might be an EPEEN thing, but then again, if people are prepared to go that extra mile, put in the extra hours, why shouldn't they be rewarded? I'd love to hear one rational reason. "I pay my fee, I should be able to get what I want, regardless of my skill and/or time dedicated towards it" Is not an excuse.

If you went into work did nothing outstanding, just went in, did what your job entails, yet a colleague who has the same role did extra work, that wasn't expected of him, stayed out after hours to make sure things got done, Who would be likely for promotion? Just because you're employed, would you expect that promotion over the other guy? No you wouldn't.

You're not entitled to anything, you pay your fee, and Blizzard give you the opportunity to get what you want.

[Deleted]

I don't think an argument between 10/25 preferences is the big deal here. They could make it 10/20 8/16/24, anything, it wouldn't matter.
The issue is the data that shows, based on WoW player base minus China, we have approximately 35% of players raiding in Wrath.
Drops down to about 20% in Cata with steady decline.
Drops down to about 10% in MoP.

I'll link it again for you.
http://i.imgur.com/Pju1d.png

And you'll notice with the Wrath statistics that I IGNORED ALL 10MAN KILLS. AND THERE'S STILL ~DOUBLE THE NUMBER OF PLAYERS.
I'm sure there's people in Wrath that in those statistics were mutually exclusive as 10man.
And we're discarding that data.

What your graph fails to take into account is the millions of players that take part in LFR now though, thats not to say raiding didn't go down inbetween, it did, that is obvious. However to get the full effect you would have to see that the players that are doing LFR exclusively no longer need to do normal 10/25 to do the same. So even though there has been an increase in ppl seeing the 'raid' (which your graph excludes) those players that may have been doing normal 10/25 no longer have to if its just for seeing the content. Thus a decline is still present. It's also only 2 months into the first tier of MOP.
There are also other variables that your graph cannot show, such as alt raids in wrath, difficulty of raid content, time of gearing.
And those variables will be substantial, in wrath due to seperate lockouts players in 10 could easily pug 25 on the same toon, and 25 mans could form 2-3 10 mans and get gear in them as well. That alone would cause a decline in statistics, however since T13, and the introduction of LFR, ppl don't pug much anymore on alts, they just gear in lfr instead for less time spent for gear progression. If you don't include LFR statistics you're excluding a HUGE pool of players that wrath would have shown as 10/25 man pugs.

Like someone else has said, if you took a reading from end boss kills instead, you'd see a smaller dissparity. Wrath was easier, on both difficulties.

[Deleted]

What your graph fails to take into account is the millions of players that take part in LFR now though

LFR is not raiding though. It doesn't have any of the characteristics that defined raids previously. They're basically just public group quests for 25 people that you cannot fail.

[Deleted]

All the 10man kids will see how fast the game ultimately dies when 25man dies completely within the near future, the day where the last 25man guild disband, no one will give jackshit about WoW pve anymore, you most likely disagree now, but we will see who is right. Make seperate raid lockouts in 10 and 25man and make it so 25man drop better loot like it used to do. Nothing else will help on the situation, sorry to say. Sad thing is that the majority of "raiders" raid 10man nowadays and the majority usually gets to decide what happens, even though they are retarded. For making a 10man raid you can get your small group of friends together and get a few more in, for a healthy 25man roster you need 30+ players, don't try to tell me that 10man is anywhere near as hard to set up as 25man, if you do you are stupid and very very naive, straight up.

I dion't think anyone has said that, tbh. What has been said is that the logistics are where the difficulty in 25 man lies, not the encounters, which are easier. (HC modes don't count for this discussion, not enough people do them for it to matter much.)

And the raids are not too heavy tuned for "the casual player", get real, if you wan't to hit a stand-still target like a patchwerk fight then go to lfr or to a training dummy and get good, seriously. Walking over the road and shopping food in the store is more challenging than normal mode raids atm.

Nah, the numbers don't lie.

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 11:52 AM ----------

LFR is not raiding though. It doesn't have any of the characteristics that defined raids previously. They're basically just public group quests for 25 people that you cannot fail.

Like the first 4 in ICC, in other words.

[JuicedawgYO]

Nah, the numbers don't lie.

And what do you mean with that? Numbers don't lie? People just need to get good. I'll say it again, go to lfr or to a training dummy if you wan't patchwerk style fights where no effort or brain is required. Thanks. Get good, not much more to say about that, the rest of us gets good, you can do that too, just need to believe and put in a little effort.

[Deleted]

If that is what 25man guilds want to do 25man, sure give it to them. One might think that you should want to do 25 man because you like to raid with 24 other people and not for extra benefits. Seems reasonable to give them some food and stuff since you need more effort to manage 25 players than 10.