How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Xtacle]

I would be satisfied if they would just take off the shared lockouts, no extra benefits or anything, just give me the opportunity to do both on normal difficulty and not only doing 25 mans in lolfr.

I for one would be doing both difficulties as much as I can, 25 man raiding was always my favorite but 10 mans are less of a hassle.

[MrExcelion]

One of LFR's primary reasons for staying in the 25m format is Q times for DPS.

[Deleted]

One of LFR's primary reasons for staying in the 25m format is Q times for DPS.

Yes, it is easier to fill a 25 man raid than a ten, ceteris paribus.

[Tonkaden]

No he was not, stop trolling, it's getting to the point where I think you're doing it on purpose. He is talking aboit 25 man LFR. He is also later talking how 25 man is more complex on higher difficulty. But you are not going to talk about that are you, it would hurt your "facts".

Well why would LFR in 10 be anymore difficult on 25man?

[Deleted]

Way to try and play it off lol. 6/10.

Here you go http://youtu.be/LIp86f6dEw0 the latest kill video recorded by me but I guess its just a coincedence that I post a lot of paladin forums, is named Pacer and that the person in that video is a holy paladin named Pacer. I know it drops 6 pieces of loot and you can see that at the end of the video.

Anyways the 6th piece of loot is an incentive yes, its an incentive because you need to have huge rosters in 25 man guilds. A roster of 30 people is not enough for a successful 25 man guild however a roster of 12 people for a 10 man guild is more than enough.

[Deleted]

Edit - I am not contesting that HC modes are tougher in 25 man. I'll point out that HC modes and progression raiding are completely irrelevent to popularity, though. That is, only normal modes (and normal modes once the nerfs kick in at that) count for average raiders.

So a casual guild is not progressing Elegon normal while the others are progressing Elegon heroic lets say?

Does it change anything? It is still progressing, it is still challenging for their skill.

Are you raiding currently Dragon Soul?

I am asking because that is the only way to skip the progression cycle in normal and heroic modes, by raiding previous tier that you vastly out gear, no matter if you are hardcore or casual, scrub or pro.

[Deleted]

Well why would LFR in 10 be anymore difficult on 25man?

It has something to do with the fact that if they made LFR 10 man there is no one to carry you. The chances that you get 1 healer or 1 dps that can carry the entire raid is 2,5-3 times higher in 25 man.

They could make a 10 man LFR where no one needed to be carried but then the bosses would need to have 40mil hp and do melee hits that hit for 10k and aoe that hits for 1k. It would simply be too easy if you tune it for 2 retard healers and too hard if you tune it for 2 good ones.

[Tonkaden]

Here you go http://youtu.be/LIp86f6dEw0 the latest kill video recorded by me but I guess its just a coincedence that I post a lot of paladin forums, is named Pacer and that the person in that video is a holy paladin named Pacer. I know it drops 6 pieces of loot and you can see that at the end of the video.

Anyways the 6th piece of loot is an incentive yes, its an incentive because you need to have huge rosters in 25 man guilds. A roster of 30 people is not enough for a successful 25 man guild however a roster of 12 people for a 10 man guild is more than enough.

Statistically speaking, they are the same ratio so what you are saying has no merit.

5 backups on 25 mans = 2 backups on 10 man. Its apples for apples, 0.83 or 83%. So where is the loot for the 10 man backups? If you could only raid with the same 10 and same 25 players, you would still get 2 pieces / 6 pieces respectively. Backups are an absolute non-factor in blizzard's decision on how much loot drops in each difficulty lol.

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 01:46 PM ----------

It has something to do with the fact that if they made LFR 10 man there is no one to carry you. The chances that you get 1 healer or 1 dps that can carry the entire raid is 2,5-3 times higher in 25 man.

Uh say wha?

Do you do the same LFR I do? 25 man is a huge Zerg fest. 10 man would be no different lol. Stone guard is AOE'ed down. Mechanics are completely ignored on every single fight. You could 2 heal most of them on 25 man. Im sure that 1 healer could heal LFR if it were converted to 10 man.

[Deleted]

Do you do the same LFR I do? 25 man is a huge Zerg fest. 10 man would be no different lol. Stone guard is AOE'ed down. Mechanics are completely ignored on every single fight. You could 2 heal most of them on 25 man. Im sure that 1 healer could heal LFR if it were converted to 10 man.

And that is because in every single 25 man LFR you will find atleast 1 person who carries the entire raid, when I go into LFR I usually do 50% of the healing on will of the emperor, if I left that pug and some random bad healer joined they would never kill it. If they were to make a 10 man LFR there would be some groups who didnt have a single good player and thats why they cant do it 10 man.

[Deleted]

Well why would LFR in 10 be anymore difficult on 25man?

Much harder to man.

if 25 mans had 5-6 tanks, 5 - 8 healers and the rest DPS it'd be equivalent.

[Deleted]

5 backups on 25 mans = 2 backups on 10 man. Its apples for apples, 0.83 or 83%. So where is the loot for the 10 man backups? If you could only raid with the same 10 and same 25 players, you would still get 2 pieces / 6 pieces respectively. Backups are an absolute non-factor in blizzard's decision on how much loot drops in each difficulty lol.[COLOR="red"]

I just said that 5 backups is not enough for a successful 25 man raid you will need atleast 35 players and preferably 40 (if not players then atleast characters).

[Deleted]

Statistically speaking, they are the same ratio so what you are saying has no merit.

5 backups on 25 mans = 2 backups on 10 man. Its apples for apples, 0.83 or 83%. So where is the loot for the 10 man backups? If you could only raid with the same 10 and same 25 players, you would still get 2 pieces / 6 pieces respectively. Backups are an absolute non-factor in blizzard's decision on how much loot drops in each difficulty lol.

As it is easier to find few people with high skill vs many people with high skill the same goes with attendance.

It is easier to find few reliable people and as such your bench in 10 doesnt have to be huge vs many reliable people.

A typical 25 of the past didnt only have the 8-10 people with high skill (vs the rest of the team), 8-10 decently skilled and 5-6 underperformers.

It also had a core of people with 90-100% attendance and a lot that would skip raids here and there to complete the team.

That is why you can fairly easy run 10s with 11-12 people while it is almost imposible to run 25s with 28-30 people only.

[Prokne]

No, he;s exlaining why they chose to run LFR in 25 man format and not 10 - it's easier.

Edit - I am not contesting that HC modes are tougher in 25 man. I'll point out that HC modes and progression raiding are completely irrelevent to popularity, though. That is, only normal modes (and normal modes once the nerfs kick in at that) count for average raiders.

They chose to make LFR 25 man because its easier to put together a balanced group of 25 random ppl than 10. Also since you only need 2 tanks per 25 vice 2 for 10, queues are not waiting on tanks as much for 25s. The reasons LFR is 25 come down to logistics, not because of the difficulty of 10 vs 25 in an already easier tuned raid.

[Deleted]

They chose to make LFR 25 man because its easier to put together a balanced group of 25 random ppl than 10. Also since you only need 2 tanks per 25 vice 2 for 10, queues are not waiting on tanks as much for 25s. The reasons LFR is 25 come down to logistics, not because of the difficulty of 10 vs 25 in an already easier tuned raid.

So you are saying the logistics for 25 man grups are easier than 10?

Ok .

[Deleted]

So you are saying the logistics for 25 man grups are easier than 10?

Ok .

I will try not to insult you even tho you just said one of the most stupid things I have ever heard. Yes its much easier to get a balanced group of 25 players when you do /random not to mention it makes the queue times 5 times lower for the all the dps out there.

25 man LFR allows blizzard to make LFR harder (if its too easy no one will enjoy doing it). If LFR was 10 man you would run into raids of 10 retards quite often, a group of 10 retards will never kill bosses such as garalon. In a 25 man raid you are much more likely to get atleast 1 half decent player who is smart enough to explain people what to do and carry the healing/dps.

[Deleted]

I will try not to insult you even tho you just said one of the most stupid things I have ever heard. Yes its much easier to get a balanced group of 25 players when you do /random not to mention it makes the queue times 5 times lower for the all the dps out there.

So you are saying in wows population it's easier to find raiders for a 25 man than for 10s?

Funny that they aren't as popular, really....

[Prokne]

So you are saying the logistics for 25 man grups are easier than 10?

Ok .

For LFR yes. The limitations for an LFR group are either healers or tanks. So a 25 man has 2 tanks, 6 healers, rest dps and 10 has 2 tanks, 3 healers, rest dps. Both the healer ratio and the tank ratios are lower in 25 resulting in lower queues. Compare to LFD where there is 1 tank per 5 ppl and DPS queue times are upwards of 20 min. It would be about the same in a scaled up LFD (10man LFR) while a 25 man would be able to fill up slots with easier to find DPS, lowering queue times.

[Deleted]

So you are saying in wows population it's easier to find raiders for a 25 man than for 10s?

Funny that they aren't as popular, really....

They are, LFR is the most popular raid out there. Now stop trying to twist my words into something I did not say.

[Deleted]

For LFR yes. The limitations for an LFR group are either healers or tanks. So a 25 man has 2 tanks, 6 healers, rest dps and 10 has 2 tanks, 3 healers, rest dps. Both the healer ratio and the tank ratios are lower in 25 resulting in lower queues. Compare to LFD where there is 1 tank per 5 ppl and DPS queue times are upwards of 20 min. It would be about the same in a scaled up LFD (10man LFR) while a 25 man would be able to fill up slots with easier to find DPS, lowering queue times.

So it's easier to fill a 25 man group than fill a 10?

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 08:05 PM ----------

They are, LFR is the most popular raid out there. Now stop trying to twist my words into something I did not say.

There you go then.

If you want 25 man raiding to be super popular, nerf them into oblivion. No need for extra loot, just make them comedy tank and spanks.

[Deleted]

So it's easier to fill a 25 man group than fill a 10?

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 08:05 PM ----------



There you go then.

If you want 25 man raiding to be super popular, nerf them into oblivion. No need for extra loot, just make them comedy tank and spanks.

People seek the path of least resistance, its just like a power current and that is why 10 man normal/heroic raids are so popular atm you said it yourself.