How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

**Monoxyde** · 2012-11-19, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by scadouche

When the default is the only choice for the majority of the player base, yes it will appear as if the default is what they want. I'm not saying every single person wouldn't choose the default but you can't make the statement you just said.

10 man raiding isn't default, there is a choice. if 25 man guilds are dying out it would seem the choice has been made. so i fail to see what's wrong with my post.

**scadouche** · 2012-11-19, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by Monoxyde

10 man raiding isn't default, there is a choice. if 25 man guilds are dying out it would seem the choice has been made. so i fail to see what's wrong with my post.

Read the quote from blizzard on why 25 mans are having issues. That is why your post is "wrong".

**Tingol** · 2012-11-19, 07:22 AM

We just need separated achievs, nothing else really. I'm fine with same gear, shared lockouts and everything... just separated achievs would do

**Tripleblack** · 2012-11-19, 07:23 AM

I agree that 25 mans are harder to manage and all that ( I was an officer in a 25 man guild that reformed to a 10 man, back into 25 man and finally back to 10 before it died off)
But I do not think extra loot(gear or materials or anything) is the way to get more people to raid 25 over 10 man. I don't think any option will get people tho leave 10 man or chose 25 man over 10 man.

However, I'm surprised that the uproar over the Korean loot and lockout changes were very small. I have no links/proofs but I swear in one of the blue post they addressed 10vs25 and said that they were EQUAL but then they go and give KR better 25 man loot than everyone else.. so if its equal why is it better??????? (I understand the reason behind the KR changes and that keeping players in the game equals more $$ over in KR but wouldn't the lockouts be enough?)

Now back to earlier I think adding in higher ilvl gear is stupid BUT adding in different server first is not and would please most 25 man raiders. (Its all I would ask for)

**Tingol** · 2012-11-19, 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by Monoxyde

10 man raiding isn't default, there is a choice. if 25 man guilds are dying out it would seem the choice has been made. so i fail to see what's wrong with my post.

You post is wrong. Before ppl did 25 to get better loot, now many ppl do 10 man because it is easier to find 10 man guild due to ppl not wanting to deal with difficulties of leading 25 man guild which results in too few 25 man guilds for all ppl that wanna raid in them. You would be surprised at how many ppl raid 10 mans but would rather raid in 25 mans

**dennisdkramer** · 2012-11-19, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by scadouche

I'm not really nitpicking your statement but you can flip this and see what every backwater small time 25 man guild is facing right now.

Also, 10 mans will never die. They are casual friendly and the easiest to organize with people you don't know, hence why you don't see 25 man PUGs today.

I saw, participated in, and organized TONS of 25 man pugs in wrath. I really don't see that you have any argument at all.

10s are not "casual friendly" 10s are tuned so that an average guild really cannot afford to carry any sub-par players, whereas 25m can afford at least one. 25m has a distinctly larger room for error in skill and execution, it always has. Lets not make this about which is harder, because I will fight you tooth and nail (with logic and facts) to make the point that 10m is in fact harder on average.

This isnt about which is harder, this is about how to force people to do larger raids because some people think that the raid size determines the "epicness" of the content which -news flash- is subjective.

---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 02:31 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Tripleblack

However, I'm surprised that the uproar over the Korean loot and lockout changes were very small.

Mostly I think we're not concerned because we know it won't come to america. Korean gamers (on average) have a completely different mindset than the average north american player. This is clearly evident when you look at how popular AION and TERA are in korea.

**Monoxyde** · 2012-11-19, 07:37 AM

if 25m was so wonderful doing it would be enough of a reward.. and there would then be enough 25m guilds around. it isnt so there arent. i stand by my post.

**Shadowspire** · 2012-11-19, 07:42 AM

Why is this such a big damn deal...
Look at the Korean servers..they had the easiest and fairest idea.
25 gear drops higher stat/ilvl gear. Now before ppl bitch saying its unfair think about a few things.
In 25 bosses hit harder faster and bigger spells more often.
Oh and btw look at the stone guard boss fight it is a big. Freaking DIFFRENT then having 3 ten having 4 , and really don't forget about coordination . Yes there is alittle more room for error but also remember that the error will probably cost a bigger casualties then in a 10.

So yes when it comes down to it overall the effort and durability on the players is higher on 25man so yes they should be rewarded slightly more. If you can't get ppl to do the 25 lvl fine stay at your 10 man spot.

Deleted · 2012-11-19, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by dennisdkramer

I saw, participated in, and organized TONS of 25 man pugs in wrath. I really don't see that you have any argument at all.

10s are not "casual friendly" 10s are tuned so that an average guild really cannot afford to carry any sub-par players, whereas 25m can afford at least one. 25m has a distinctly larger room for error in skill and execution, it always has. Lets not make this about which is harder, because I will fight you tooth and nail (with logic and facts) to make the point that 10m is in fact harder on average.

This isnt about which is harder, this is about how to force people to do larger raids because some people think that the raid size determines the "epicness" of the content which -news flash- is subjective.

Oh really? You organized tons of 25 ppl PuGs in WRATH?
Wow you really know what you re talking about then

The guy was talking for 25 ppl PuGs TODAY!

Also the difficulty is irrelevant really. The path of least resistance is rellevant to the discussion, and that alone should not be allowed to turn 25s obsolete.
Because you see path of least ressistance is also LFR and if they merge lock with normal raids you will see a blow to normal raids (those backwater 10 man guilds you know?) that you wouldnt believe!
The same goes if blizzard was making the content shared and under the same lock to smaller than 10 groups of people like 3-5-6 people. Again you would see that the 10 man raids would be turned obsolete.
Does it worh it though to reduce your versality as a game, your ability to offer so many and diverse experiences?
That is why 25s worth being supported, by reintroducing a system that will actually offer them a purpose and a reason of existance.
Simple things really.
10 and 25 are different. Treating them as the same was the most stupid decision taken in the raiding history of wow.

Originally Posted by dennisdkramer

Mostly I think we're not concerned because we know it won't come to america. Korean gamers (on average) have a completely different mindset than the average north american player. This is clearly evident when you look at how popular AION and TERA are in korea.

Well if you take a closer look at the news section and Blizzard official forums you would see that all where by far the hottest topic regarding raids from the begining of this expansion.

You are deluded if you think that nothing will happen though.
Too many devs talking too often on the matter you know?

**corebit** · 2012-11-19, 07:51 AM

The only way to encourage 25 man raids again:

1) go back to higher item level loots in 25mans like in Wrath.
2) restrict mount drops to 25mans only (like Mimiron's Head)

**Shadowspire** · 2012-11-19, 07:56 AM

This may Sound messed up and I will probably get banned or whatever but really this has gotten to a annoying point..

B
Honest and truly to the people that will say 25 having any advantage...fuck off...that's really it. You think it is no better ten 10 so do it and shut up. If there is anything under that issue then you think it is unfair to "others (the person complaining) really step back and think for a moment..is it relly fair I get the same loot as the guy who had to probably do more dps,heal,tank skill then me to get that SLIGHLTY better item he has.

**Sett** · 2012-11-19, 08:01 AM

1. Slight item level difference or a new tier only to be gotten in 25 man heroic. Or normal. Just something of a difference.
2. Mounts that only drop for 25.
3. Bosses that only can be done in 25 man. A Sindy or Algalon event.

Just some obvious ideas I'm sure the dev team has thought of.

Deleted · 2012-11-19, 08:03 AM

Useless to reward this, it's not an effort to raid 25m, it's a guild choice. I have raided 25m and 10m and I can tell you if you compare the overall tier raiding it's the same. Some bosses are easyer in 25m some in 10m, the loot is the same, I don't understand why there is a need to hand out special rewards. When 40m raiding was killed none militated about it, if 25m should at one end disappear then it's the community's choice. Maybe people don't want to have a 15m core team and then just recruit 10 "new guys" so they keep failing each try.

**syrant** · 2012-11-19, 08:04 AM

So tired of this discussion, which has been held for many years. Three simple options

1) eliminate 10m raids, keep only 25m
2) eliminate 25m raids, keep only 10m
3) eliminate both, make 15m or whatever number

Done. No more complaining about disparities and everyone eats the same shit.

Deleted · 2012-11-19, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by rnbwtrout

10mans:
melee has a hard time finding a roster or pug spot.
can create "bring the class not the player" situations (healing cd's, burst dps, aoe dps, buffs...etc).

This. 10-man tends to pigeonhole certain classes into certain specs. With a small roster like 10-man, quite some class/spec combo's have a hard time finding a guild. We currently have 30+ specs. 25-man raids allow for a more flexible setup of classes and specs.

And indeed, I find it important to be within a fairly large group of people, active vent. Not just a guild with 15 raiders and that's that. However, I see the burden on 25-man's. Finding a solution is hard. I'd say bring back seperate lockouts and achievements or make raids a 15 man thing.

**Caribald** · 2012-11-19, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by det

Offering a reward kinda seems like saying "There are two raid formats, we consider one superior and bribe you to do it".

lol reminds me of heroic oculus - everyone complains about easiest and most fun heroic in wotlk, blizzard gives an extra reward if you get it as random so people don't leave the group. LOL

**Halicia** · 2012-11-19, 08:14 AM

I'm a little reserved about 'encouraging' players to do 25man over 10man. Too much and it becomes mandatory, if its not already.

At the very least though, we can identify and remove the things that DISCOURAGE players from running 25mans, when they would otherwise prefer to.

I know it sounds stupid, and trivial, but is there REALLY a need for separate 10man and 25man feasts ? Lets just make one big feast and give 25mans the savings as a compensation for organizational issues. Bring back cauldrons. None of this 'grab a flask or two for later' either, buff now or never.

Will that encourage players to run 25mans ? Hell no. But it will ... ever so slightly ... reduce the added organizational issues.

The larger issue is allowing players to raid with likeminded players. So many servers simply 'cant' field decent 25man raids, so are forced to fall back on 10man instead. With true crossrealm guilds, region-wide AH, and no more excuses why current content should be gated from cross-server, 25man raids might experience a second wind.

I'd also lean towards saying that Blizzard needs to find new ways to reward players in PvE & PvP content that aren't tied directly to replacing gear. One-use BoA/BoP rep items, transmog-only drops, random currencies (wouldn't it be interesting to find a darkmoon faire or cooking token on a boss ?). 25 mans could be more liberal with these bonuses (preferably in the form of individually awarded satchels/etc, to avoid any additional looting issues)

Deleted · 2012-11-19, 08:48 AM

25m already wastes less loot with disenchant, tier pieces always get used in the first weeks; 10m doesn't have this luxary. No shaman? All caster mail wasted. So if you agree they need an additional reward in 25m (I disagree) something like a standard blood spirit reagent could suffice. 25m also have the option of going 2x10m (or even more) with alts to spread out loot. A 10m guild does not have the resources to do this, and if they do its a logistics nightmare to them compared to the easiness a 25m guild has with this. In other words you can temporarily downsize and its what 25m guilds do before HC mode is open.

**Raelbo** · 2012-11-19, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by Archidamos

That is what you get when you come with ideas how to make smt that is working just fine, to "work better".

Except that things were NOT "working just fine". Things now do work better for most people.

Originally Posted by Archidamos

I don't feel any sympathy for those people.

Good for you. I don't feel any sympathy for you.

Originally Posted by Archidamos

They screwed raiding for so many people from the begining of cataclysm, that i feel numbed both about the game and the company that runs it.

We've had this debate before. You have argued your point to death, and quite frankly you are no closer to convincing the rational majority of your viewpoint, basically because you are exactly the kind of "fanatic" you accuse others of being.

I have nothing against 25 man raiding. Really I don't. But 25 man raiding is a difficult format for me to participate in for a number of reasons other than my skill, commitment, effort or ability. Of particular importance 25 man raiding is a completely non-viable raid format for most of my friends playing WoW.

The fact that Blizzard "screwed raiding" into a format that works well for me and my friends, giving us a first class raiding experience within the 10 man environment is one of the best moves Blizzard have made. Period. It was stupid in the past that people had to choose to be second rate raiders if they preferred 10 man.

No one should ever feel compelled to raid 25 man because it holds (in-game) rewards unavailable in 10 man. Unfortunately for you, it seems that without such rewards, the truth comes out that most people don't actually care for 25 man raiding after all. All they cared about was better gear, mounts and titles, but left to their own devices, would rather have been raiding 10 man.

In essence, your preference for 25 man raiding was being enabled at the expense of those who didn't like 25 man raiding but felt forced to do it. Such a situation can never be right.

Deleted · 2012-11-19, 09:00 AM