How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Saxtorph]

You haven't been playing long, have you? There used to be separate lockouts for 10's and 25's and people weren't really complaining about it when you could run both. Part of the reason that 25's are failing is because of giving the raids the same lockout.

Wrong. All the whining comes down to one thing only: The mentality that if one is in a bigger group, one deserves better loot. Separate lockouts aren't the issue.

[Heathy]

How does being forced into one raid size help at the moment? the double lockout meant you could pug one size and save the other for your guild runs, if you were clever you could save either or till the last day of the week so you knew if you were going to get a full 25 or not, if not you did 10 guild runs and pugged the 25s. I thought it was considerably more flexible.

[Talen]

the main reason being the badge inflation, thats not exactly a good reason to cut ppls fun in half each week.

The main reasons being the design and gameplay issues that resulted from (as an example) having some players double dip on loot each week, the problems of overexposure leading to burnout, and so on.

How does being forced into one raid size help at the moment? the double lockout meant you could pug one size and save the other for your guild runs, if you were clever you could save either or till the last day of the week so you knew if you were going to get a full 25 or not, if not you did 10 guild runs and pugged the 25s. I thought it was considerably more flexible.

Splitting the lockouts has definite advantages. But that doesn't mean the problems associated with them should be ignored.

EJL

[Mr Goodkat]

Why should 25 mans get something extra ? when 25 is clearly easier to do than 10 man raids ?

And for all those who gonna go mental about that statement. See the amount of 10 man guilds that have done 6/6 HC compared to 25 mans.

It was like 12 25 man guilds that cleared mogu HC when there was only 2 10 man guilds. (stats on mmo-champ a lil back)
There is a shit tonne more 10 man guilds. The numbers speak for them selves

you have the same understanding of numbers like Injin: none

speaking of Injin, he foolishly thought that my post proved the exact opposite of what i wanted to explain, alas i have to do in more depths for the 2 of you.

there is only one problem: 25 man representation is 46% in the top 100, 30% in the best 1000 guilds, but if you check guilds ranked 9001-10000 only 2% are 25 man raids, want to guess how many there are in the bracket 24001-25000?

you 2 think, that the average sum of bosses killed by 25 man raids is bigger the average sum of bosses killed by 10 man raids, ergo 10 man is more difficult

this would ONLY be true if the skill level, determination and time commitment were equal which is exactly not the case. the remaining 25 man raids are at least semi-serious about raiding with a more or less constant roster and invest 2-3 days or more per week.
however the huge bulk of 10 man raids, anything >rank 15000 are purely casual, perhaps one 1 raid per week, perhaps friendship the only criteria, less player skill, often have to resort to pick up 1 or 2 random players.

it's the same at the top, paragon just proved that quite nicely, a ex 25 man raid downsizes and puts in the same effort as they did during their 25 man raiding and what happens? they were compting with the best 25 man raids and got 6/6 hc while other 10 man raids were at 2/6: an A team playing in a B league

let me emphasize this again: the average skill determination and time commitment in an average 25 man raid is way higher than in an average 10 man raid, but you 2 choose to ignore that, but now you probably want to tell me that all of these 20000-30000 casual 10 man raids actually raid at least 3 days per week with a constant roster and skill criteria.


but way more important: if 25 man is so much easier (or in espe's words:"tuned for 15 players and 10 dead bodies"), why are ther only 7% 25 man raids? strange, isn't it? one would think that this size would flourish given the succes of lfr and the level of player skill you experience there.

yeah, i can guess your answer: the all seek the challenge and would never consider taking the path of least resistance.

[Deleted]

The opposite would happen. Like in firelands/DS, a few guilds would try to form proper 25m guilds and wouldn´t succeed. It´s nearly impossible to form proper 10m pugs, how in the world should we get a 25m pug together? There are 1 guild with a 50 men roster and another one with approx 35 on our Realm. The rest of us try to form a "guild raid" with randoms.

[Heathy]

That is more of a realm problem than a raid problem, you guys need a mass transfer or free transfers to your faction, because at the end of the day you obviously just don't have enough decent players to choose from. which is a problem ofc.

I've always been on silvermoon eu and that realm has had a pretty decent pve track record. most things get pugged eventually, even if ppl wait for the elite to gear up and start making alt runs. which is basically how i went through cata, just pugging everything.

[scadouche]

That is more of a realm problem than a raid problem, you guys need a mass transfer or free transfers to your faction, because at the end of the day you obviously just don't have enough decent players to choose from. which is a problem ofc.

I've always been on silvermoon eu and that realm has had a pretty decent pve track record. most things get pugged eventually, even if ppl wait for the elite to gear up and start making alt runs. which is basically how i went through cata, just pugging everything.

This definitely contributes to the problem but it is not the overall issue. Back in BC/WotLK recruiting players for 25 man off of your server was much easier. Today it is near impossible.

That is why filling in 3 raid spots is not the same as filling in 1. @a poster above.

[Heathy]

And the reason why is because 10 is easier and rewards the same, why make a guild that wants to do 25man, purely for the feel of it, yet they don't want to end up missing players and end up doing 10 mans anyway.

the gear incentive gave ppl that drive to actually log in and join the raid, at least it helped anyway. i guess now ppl can be like 'well i dont need to log in tonight, they can just make a couple of 10 mans and be no worse off'.

meh i think i've said all i can really, i just see there being no real way to create more drive for more 25man raiding other than making the 10 man guild feel like they could expand into 25s aswell. it is as simple as time and effort = reward, if the 25 man is 1.5x more effort it should be reflected in the reward for doing it, and it needs to be something that shows ppl 'hey look, i do 25mans' epeen is everything.

[Raelbo]

Give them 1-man raid, they will leave 10-man because it's easier to managed.

This is what is referred to as a strawman argument. You create a ridiculous scenario (the 1-man raid) and then use it to try and ridicule a similar, but ultimately very different scenario (10-man raid).

There ARE people who raid 25 man in spite of the effort required to manage it. Why? Because they like the format and will put in the required effort to get the reward of experiencing 25 man raiding, even though there is an "easier" (logistically speaking) path to accomplishing the same in game outcome.

The real "reward" that gets "real raiders" raiding is NOT gear, or achievements or mounts or titles or even bragging rights, but the social interaction of working with and achieving something challenging, as a group. Sure those others things do count for something and are part of the total reward, but what really distinguishes a raider from someone who is simply competitive is the group dynamic.

I have seen a number of arguments from people posting here that there are "other people" who are only in it for the gear, and that rewarding the same gear from content involving groups of 5 or 3 or only 1 person would result in all those people moving to the "logistically easier" format. But I have never seen a single poster stand up and say "I" am only in it for the gear.

Forgive me for asking, but how many of you here, who are raiders, would actually abandon raiding altogether if there was an easier way to get the gear?

Exactly. Very few of you.

Why? Because by definition, the concept of a 1-man raid has no group dynamic. Clearly both 10 man and 25 man raids have a group dynamic that motivates people. Sure, different people will have difference preferences, but at some point a raid format that is either too big, or too small, will have a very small following.

I personally enjoy raiding 10 man content above 3 man content, 5 man content or 25 or 40 man content. For me it's in the sweet spot numbers wise - maybe not the perfect number, but pretty close - less than 8 people and it starts to feel too empty, more than 15 starts to gets too crowded for my tastes.

Obviously for different people there will be a different ideal number, but fundamentally I believe that very few raiders would transition to a much smaller raid size than 10 players even with the reduced logistical difficulty simply because the experience of playing with a group of more than X players (where X can range from 1-100 depending on the individual), regardless of loot, is a reward worth putting in the effort for .

[Deleted]

That is more of a realm problem than a raid problem, you guys need a mass transfer or free transfers to your faction, because at the end of the day you obviously just don't have enough decent players to choose from. which is a problem ofc.

I've always been on silvermoon eu and that realm has had a pretty decent pve track record. most things get pugged eventually, even if ppl wait for the elite to gear up and start making alt runs. which is basically how i went through cata, just pugging everything.

Heh, the paradox is that this system is further digrading the situation for underpopulated realms.

In my server only during tier 13, a medium population server, 3 guilds that were forced into 10 man decided and went through guild transfers to high populated realms (ravencrest X 2 and stormreaver) to attempt a return to 25s.
2 of them are still alive, the third one died, but our server lost over 50 people as a result.
Add next to that the individual transfers for the same reasons.

So 10 man raiders are supporting that "we should fix the issue with the underpopulated realms", while they dont want to do a thing for one of the main reasons that CREATES underpopulated realms...

So lets fix them but leave things as they are so they can break down again?

Mindblowing but whatever...

[Heathy]

I don't see the gear as the incentive directly I see rewarding a higher tier and balancing that higher tier around the 25man equals a better challenge, maybe only superficially due to the inflation of numbers, but it still reflects an overall greater accomplishment when you progress.

[Deleted]

I wholeheartedly disagree with 25 man getting any form of better loot than 10 man.

If people want to raid 25 man, there will be 25 man raids. If people don't want to raid 25 man, there won't be 25 man raids. Simple as that. If they die out, that simply means that nobody cares about 25 man.

[Deleted]

I wholeheartedly disagree with 25 man getting any form of better loot than 10 man.

If people want to raid 25 man, there will be 25 man raids. If people don't want to raid 25 man, there won't be 25 man raids. Simple as that. If they die out, that simply means that nobody cares about 25 man.

Since people keep bringing this up, i will have to point out the simplistic idea:

1) Make raid content available to 5 mans
2) Share the locks, the loot, the difficulty, the achievements between 5 and 10.
3) See 10 man dying and repeat after me!!!

If people want to raid 10 man, there will be 10 man raids.
If people don't want to raid 10 man, there wont be 10 man raids!
Simple as that,
If they die out, that simply means that nobody cares about 10 man!!!

[Deleted]

Since people keep bringing this up, i will have to point out the simplistic idea:

1) Make raid content available to 5 mans
2) Share the locks, the loot, the difficulty, the achievements between 5 and 10.
3) See 10 man dying and repeat after me!!!

If people want to raid 10 man, there will be 10 man raids.
If people don't want to raid 10 man, there wont be 10 man raids!
Simple as that,
If they die out, that simply means that nobody cares about 10 man!!!

Too bad 5 people isn't a raid, so back to strawman drawing.

You know, they could do other things to make 25 raiding more interesting. But touching iLevel is just plain wrong and will just replace one problem with another.

[Angella]

This is what is referred to as a strawman argument. You create a ridiculous scenario (the 1-man raid) and then use it to try and ridicule a similar, but ultimately very different scenario (10-man raid).

There ARE people who raid 25 man in spite of the effort required to manage it. Why? Because they like the format and will put in the required effort to get the reward of experiencing 25 man raiding, even though there is an "easier" (logistically speaking) path to accomplishing the same in game outcome.

The real "reward" that gets "real raiders" raiding is NOT gear, or achievements or mounts or titles or even bragging rights, but the social interaction of working with and achieving something challenging, as a group. Sure those others things do count for something and are part of the total reward, but what really distinguishes a raider from someone who is simply competitive is the group dynamic.

I have seen a number of arguments from people posting here that there are "other people" who are only in it for the gear, and that rewarding the same gear from content involving groups of 5 or 3 or only 1 person would result in all those people moving to the "logistically easier" format. But I have never seen a single poster stand up and say "I" am only in it for the gear.

Forgive me for asking, but how many of you here, who are raiders, would actually abandon raiding altogether if there was an easier way to get the gear?

Exactly. Very few of you.

Why? Because by definition, the concept of a 1-man raid has no group dynamic. Clearly both 10 man and 25 man raids have a group dynamic that motivates people. Sure, different people will have difference preferences, but at some point a raid format that is either too big, or too small, will have a very small following.

I personally enjoy raiding 10 man content above 3 man content, 5 man content or 25 or 40 man content. For me it's in the sweet spot numbers wise - maybe not the perfect number, but pretty close - less than 8 people and it starts to feel too empty, more than 15 starts to gets too crowded for my tastes.

Obviously for different people there will be a different ideal number, but fundamentally I believe that very few raiders would transition to a much smaller raid size than 10 players even with the reduced logistical difficulty simply because the experience of playing with a group of more than X players (where X can range from 1-100 depending on the individual), regardless of loot, is a reward worth putting in the effort for .

Just promise me you never go on to design a game. WoW players are EXTREMELY gear motivated. So much so that if PvP gear is the BIS for PvE you damn well better expect a lot of PVE people doing PVP to get said BIS gear.

There is some incentive to do 25s in that everyone in the 25s gears faster. That works for groups that are elite and can down stuff at the same rate as in 10s. For everyone else - aka people who cannot down as many bosses in 25s as 10s - 10s gear faster and therefore that is where the bulk of players go. Its a bimodal distribution based on skill and incentive.

Also I assure you - if there were BIS items in a 1 man raid almost EVERY SINGLE RAIDER would do the raid. Even if people absolutely hate it they will do it for the gear.

I get you like 10s. I get you are indifferent if 25s die. Still please don't spout obvious garbage.

[Raelbo]

why make a guild that wants to do 25man, purely for the feel of it

What other reason is there? This is the problem with 25 man raiding. People claim to prefer 25 man raiding, but they admit that they don't do it for the feel of it? It makes no sense whatsoever.

the gear incentive gave ppl that drive to actually log in and join the raid,

Exactly. People didn't raid 25 man for the experience of being in a 25 person group. They did it because otherwise they would have felt like they were missing out on experiencing top end content and the top end rewards to show for it.

at least it helped anyway.

It helped to prop up 25 man raiding and keep the number of people doing it sufficient to make it a lot more viable than it is today. It did not help people to do what they actually wanted to do though.

i guess now ppl can be like 'well i dont need to log in tonight, they can just make a couple of 10 mans and be no worse off'.

Honestly, do you really want people like that in your raid group? Besides which most 10 man rosters don't have a lot of spare raiders lying around such that people can slack off.

meh i think i've said all i can really, i just see there being no real way to create more drive for more 25man raiding other than making the 10 man guild feel like they could expand into 25s aswell.

Well I have said this before and I'll say it again. If people don't like the 25 man raiding experience, then 25 man raiding is going to suffer. Trying to save a raid format that no one likes by adding artificial carrots is not a real solution.

That being said, I am not convinced that 25 man raiding is dead. There are clearly people who prefer the format, and they are still raiding, and I believe that as long as Blizzard continue to support 25 man raids, people will run them. They just won't be as popular as 10 mans, but IMO that's ok.

The people whining here about how unfair it is and demanding better rewards from 25 man raiding have zero credibility. If they are honest about preferring 25 man raiding, they would not need better incentives to run it. No, what these people actually want is for Blizzard to offer rewards to people with a preference for 10 man raiding, to get them back into 25 mans, to make 25 man raiding viable again, because, simply put, there aren't enough people out there who genuinely prefer 25 man raiding.

it is as simple as time and effort = reward, if the 25 man is 1.5x more effort it should be reflected in the reward for doing it

25 man should be 2.5 times more effort than 10 man because there are 2.5 times more people. The difference (and this is pretty universally acknowledged from most sides of this argument) is that in either format it is typically only a few individuals putting in the logistical effort, and as a result the load on the 25 man leadership is significantly heavier for those individuals.

For the average raider, the effort is the same. You still need to do dailies and/or heroics and/or LFR to gear up. You still need to organise flasks and food and enchantments and gems. You still need to read up on tactics, learn your spec and practice your rotation. You still need to pitch up for raid on time, be there for 3-4 hours, 1-5 times a week. You still need to put in the effort during the fights, release and run after you die, and keep plugging away, squeezing out every ounce of dps or healing, and focussing on moving at the right time, doing the rights things and not screwing up, until that boss hits the floor in a mangled heap of blood, bones and loot.

The only difference for most raiders is whether you prefer doing this in a group of 25 people, or a group of 10 people. And clearly, most raiders prefer doing this with 10 people, otherwise they would be in 25 man raiding outfits.

[Heathy]

its easy to just shrug it off as simply, if they preferred it they would simply be doing it, that obviously not the case because ppl favour 10 mans for the ease of getting it formed and done, every aspect about the 10 man is streamlined you have less players to worry about, its common knowledge that you can do 10man, and get the same reward for doing it, there is no need to branch into 25s at any point because there is no incentive to do so.. why put yourself through the hassle when you wont get anything out of it. this is the basis of this whole discussion.

and yes sorry 2.5 times more effort, although the effort is subjective its mostly just sticking around through the shit like no shows and progression blocks.

no shows are a serious draw back for 25s because for the most part you can't always fit an alt or a friend in your team and hope they perform as well as one of your regulars. where as the 10 man, its quite easy to slot randoms into your group and succeed.

[Raelbo]

Just promise me you never go on to design a game. WoW players are EXTREMELY gear motivated. So much so that if PvP gear is the BIS for PvE you damn well better expect a lot of PVE people doing PVP to get said BIS gear.

I never denied that gear is a motivator. But it is NOT the most important motivator for a raider.

Also I assure you - if there were BIS items in a 1 man raid almost EVERY SINGLE RAIDER would do the raid. Even if people absolutely hate it they will do it for the gear.

True, BUT, that is actually completely irrelevant to my assertion that 1-man raiding would not destroy 10/25 man raiding. Why? Because they are going for the gear to get an advantage to raiding the other content.

Tell me honestly Angella, would YOU stop raiding 25 man (assuming that is your preference) if you could get the same level of gear from solo content? Did you stop raiding Mogu'shan Vaults on the basis that you can get 489 gear with valor?

And if perchance you did answer "yes" then may I ask, why exactly do YOU care about 25 man raiding?

So you see, basic logic applies: If 1-man raiding truly could kill 10/25 man raiding, then clearly no one cares about 10/25 man raiding, so the loss is hardly anything worth crying about (Not that I think it will ever happen mind you)

I get you like 10s. I get you are indifferent if 25s die. Still please don't spout obvious garbage.

Actually you don't get me at all, or the point I am making, maybe because you have assumed it is garbage before trying to understand it.

I prefer 10s, yes. I am not indifferent to the plight of 25s though. I just question the honesty of many of those proclaiming a love for it, whilst at the same time demanding incentives to do it. Sorry to say it, but this simply proves to me that most self proclaimed 25 man fans simply want bigger rewards for the same effort and don't actually sincerely care for the 25 man format in and of itself.

[Malfecto]

I don't buy this logistics argument. 10 people all equally put into feasts and flasks just the same as 25 people can all put equally into feasts and flasks. We use the pandaren banquet, everyone farms/fishes/slays a set amount per week, and voila, we are overflowing in feasts. The amount of time to farm for each person is less than an hour a week. This scales very well between the 10 man feast and the 25 man feast. If you can't get your raiders to do 1 hour of work a week to raid, then you probably don't want them as raiders.

Flasks are even easier with songbell buying your golden lotus and herbs being barely a few dailies worth of gold for a weeks worth of flasks.

So tell me, where is the logistics?

In a 25 man group, if you are short a couple of people, and assuming you have no bench, then at least you can split into AT LEAST one 10 man if not two 10 man raids and push the rest of the week like that. 10 man groups are boned.

The only thing I can see that is remotely more difficult in a 25 man is the higher chance you have slackers on a per raider basis, simply because the population is higher. If you don't want the extra effort of organizing 15 more people, then maybe you need to reorganize your officers and leaders so that it isn't falling on just 2 people. What I have found though is that this doesn't happen because the few "leaders" want all the glory and control for themselves.

[Deleted]

WTF? Do people really suggest adding more loot to 25man? That's already the big bonus 25man gets, easier to gear everyone up in the group.