How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Heathy]

than 10man is USELESS and will DIE. what part of that do you not get.

how will giving 25mans the incentive make it any less easier to actually succeed if that is also balanced upward.

10 mans will always be the more convenient and most ran size based on that principle alone.

[araine]

how will giving 25mans the incentive make it any less easier to actually succeed if that is also balanced upward.

10 mans will always be the more convenient and most ran size based on that principle alone.

Not if you start making 10mans drop shit gear compared to 25man, that will kill 10mans almost instantly

[Talen]

also if your in a 10man guild that is happy and having fun why do you care what happens incentive wise to 25s when it has absolutely zero impact on your 10 man raiding.

Because its an incentive deliberately added to the game to draw players to 25s. That type of incentive simply does not exist in todays game. The issues affecting 25s lie elsewhere.

for my argument the only way i'd see 25s working with their extra ilvl is if the tier was balanced around it just like before, so its not just padding, its designed that way on purpose. I'm not suggesting the re-addition of splitting up a tier and keeping the scaling difficulty the same, but amping it up in line with the reward. just as it was previously. I'm quite sure noone here is advocating the addition of better loot and keeping the 25 man at the same difficulty scale as it is now with 10 mans but actually increasing the challenge as such to make up for that, so ppl won't say things like 'omg the 25s are facepalm half the raid is afk anyway'.

It was tried. It caused problems. There were reasons the old model was changed and if you want to suggest a return to the old model, please also consider the changes that would be necessary to address the issues that model has.

EJL

[Heathy]

10 and 25 man co-existed peacefully in the past, one never killed the other, ppl either did one or the other or both.

the inflation problem that happened with over farming and the vp/badge thing where everyone bought crap loads of gems and mats and stuff which sort of got silly, these thing have already been fixed with the mechanics in the game the lfr stops you getting multiple loots but doesn't hinder trys can be used and the vp was capped ages ago so that isn't a problem anymore.

[Espe]

Not if you start making 10mans drop shit gear compared to 25man, that will kill 10mans almost instantly

Again, 25m raiders are already rewarded for their logistical (read: finding a few more warm bodies than 10m) effort. They get more drops per boss, more battle rezes per attempt, and that is on top of the fact that it takes much, much less personal responsibility to complete. There is a reason most of the top progression guilds in the world play 25 man, and refer to it as "zerging."

Very few have what it takes to go into 10hm and still compete with 25hm because every player in a 10hm group needs to be doing well. That is just not the case at all in 25m. Check my sig for details.

[Szemere]

25mans are already receiving 6 items for 25 people (24%) compared to 2 for 10man (20%), isn't that already the compensation? Or did they revert that again?

[Wycked]

All it would take, is you prevent 10 mans from getting server first achievements. Oh, and breaking up the achieves into 10 and 25 wouldn't hurt.

[Deleted]

Are you fucking serious ?! Raid 25 men for some extra consumables and junk ?! Do better. Much better.

[Talen]

I don't think that going back to wrath is feasible anymore.
I am quite certain though that we shouldnt have moved from Wrath model towards the direction we did.

I'd disagree. I think the current model is much better, much fairer than the previous model. It has issues, but the previous model also had issues.

Action: Ask the raid leader to downsize. Answer yes--->profit since the individual is in the selected few.
Answer no---->start looking for a 10 man at the level individual thinks he can perform.

Yes. And its dreadful that we should expect players to choose a raid based on what they, horrendous that they should raid with players they want to raid with.

EJL

[Deleted]

I thought 25 man Raiding was more challenging and more fun?

There's 2 incentives right there, we don't need more.

[Vanisari]

Not if you start making 10mans drop shit gear compared to 25man, that will kill 10mans almost instantly

There were plenty of 10m guilds in WotLK so that isn't true at all. Will some 10m guilds go to 25m? Yes, but certainly not all of them and many that try will fail because running a 25m team is much different than a 10m. It's not as simple as just recruiting 15 more people.

[Wycked]

oh and for the love of god stop saying 10's/25's are comparable difficulty. BUT WE ARE ONLY GET 1 BATTLE REZ...BUT..BUT...YOUCANCARRYPEOPLE.....oh wait, you have half the complexity, have significantly lower damage requirements, don't have to manage half the cool down's in rotations, less ads to control, easier enrages, and require all around less skill. 10 mans are what 25 man guilds that can't hack it become, the top guilds aern't raiding 25m because their easier, they raid them because 10 man raiding is a joke.

[Talen]

Yes I am.
I am advocating for more incentive because we cannot get new recruits.
Our guild is slowly dying and theres nothing we can do about it b/c everybody just wants 10man.

A perfect example of a wrong answer.

dude they nearly lost 2mil subs when they changed to this current model.

Yes, because Cata offered no end game content outside raids so gave no-raiders nothing to do.

Its a good thing raiders were kept happy; the game might have lost another hundred thousand or so.

What? You seriously think those 2 million cared about raids?

why would you need that gear if the 10 man is balanced around the tier that drops within it ?

For the same reason every single player in the game needs better gear. Quicker, better, safer progression in every single aspect of the game.

10 mans will always be the more convenient and most ran size based on that principle alone.

History proves you wrong. Gear ALWAYS wins out


EJL

[Deleted]

Only 1 major flaw in your logic, 5 mans is GROUP // Party content size and will always be It has nothing with raid size to do so try a better excuse, maybe we want more epics for less work is a good one for 25man moochers.

Selective reading skills i presume?
Let me quote the rest for ya, since you re so butthurt to rush and say "10 is a raid, 5 is a dungeon"

"Too bad that 10 man was not a raid either till blizzard decided it is.
Before that it was an oversized dungeon (10 man scholomance, stratholme)
I can swap to raid with 2 people, so if blizzard says that 2 ppl is a raid it is a god damn raid by the same merit you claim 10 man IS a raid!

Plus your definition of a raid is irrelevant thus ill repeat myself because my argument stands!

Since people keep bringing this up, i will have to point out the simplistic idea:

1) Make raid content available to 5 mans
2) Share the locks, the loot, the difficulty, the achievements between 5 and 10.
3) See 10 man dying and repeat after me!!!

If people want to raid 10 man, there will be 10 man raids.
If people don't want to raid 10 man, there wont be 10 man raids!
Simple as that,
If they die out, that simply means that nobody cares about 10 man!!!"

[Talen]

10 and 25 man co-existed peacefully in the past, one never killed the other, ppl either did one or the other or both.

the inflation problem that happened with over farming and the vp/badge thing where everyone bought crap loads of gems and mats and stuff which sort of got silly, these thing have already been fixed with the mechanics in the game the lfr stops you getting multiple loots but doesn't hinder trys can be used and the vp was capped ages ago so that isn't a problem anymore.

I'm sorry - but you simply have to be new to the game to have missed what happened before Cata.....

EJL

[Heathy]

although its not mandatory you still feel inclined to do so, that is not a problem with the system but a problem with personal preference to being rewarded better for participating in a raid that requires a higher level of co-ordination.

if you wanted to move into it simply because of that then it wont affect the ppl that want to do 10 man simply because its easier to make the raid or they find it more fun to do that size.

[nehunter]

What's the point of MMO if they keep downsizing raids?

[Deleted]

The future lies in farms with cuddly pandas and some bad a$$ pet bettles between plowing and harvesting.
Who needs raids with such thrills?

[Vulgrym]

Again, 25m raiders are already rewarded for their logistical (read: finding a few more warm bodies than 10m) effort.

No they don't. If this were remotely true, Blizzard would not be seeking to rectify a situation that isn't supposedly broken. Not sure how you've missed this, the interview with Ion Hazzikostas is still on the front page of MMO-Champion lol.

Very few have what it takes to go into 10hm and still compete with 25hm because every player in a 10hm group needs to be doing well. That is just not the case at all in 25m. Check my sig for details.

Every player in 25HM needs to be playing well during progression for the hardest fights. If anybody slacks during a Heroic Rag (throughput) or a single person screws up a Defile on HLK (execution), you wipe. THAT is why the top players have traditionally gravitated towards that format; simply put, raiding is a team endeavor and the bigger the team, the more complex and difficult the challenge. You can pretend that scale doesn't matter in a MMO, but it does

The only reason Paragon dropped down to 10, in their own words, was that it became too hard to maintain a roster of the quality they had grown to expect and demand. Let that sink in.

[scadouche]

What's the point of MMO if they keep downsizing raids?

Bingo. I would like for some of you to answer this.