How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[araine]

The "REWARD" should go to the one having to do the "logistical effort", random raiders in 25-man guilds shouldn't be rewarded, since they are doing nothing that is rewardable. I keep seeing lots and lots of people trying to reward EVERYONE in the 25-man raid, which isn't right. The only "hard" part about 25-mans is the actual organizing of the raids, so if they can find a way to reward guild/raid leaders etc. then go ahead, but rewarding the random raiders is moronic to say the least, they are doing nothing that is rewardable more than 10-man raiders.

If they care so much about it have the GM and the officers take 10k gold a week just for the work of getting the raid together, I mean noone should object since we have heard how hard work it is so 10k from the guildbank every week for every officer. Guilds can fix this problem without blizzards help and really if you made 10k a week from just running your guild it sounds like a good paying endeavor

---------- Post added 2012-11-24 at 01:02 PM ----------

How does that force anyone to do 25? You could do 10 man strict and not give a crap about 25 mans.

That is obviously now how things will go down, And you know it since you wouldnt suggest the solution unless you expected it to pouch a MAJOR chunk of 10m guilds. Really how dumb do you think i am?

[Deleted]

If they care so much about it have the GM and the officers take 10k gold a week just for the work of getting the raid together, I mean noone should object since we have heard how hard work it is so 10k from the guildbank every week for every officer. Guilds can fix this problem without blizzards help and really if you made 10k a week from just running your guild it sounds like a good paying endeavor

Genious! How come we didnt come up with that solution? Oh wait! maybe because it wont solve any problem!
Got it right?
But then again you find no problem in the current situation to begin with, so it is quite reasonable your "solution" not to solve anything, because there is nothing to be solved according to you (and others) in the first place!

That is obviously now how things will go down, And you know it since you wouldnt suggest the solution unless you expected it to pouch a MAJOR chunk of 10m guilds. Really how dumb do you think i am?

pouch?
You mean what happened in early Cata by 10 man guilds formed overnight?
Yeah i thought so. You didnt seem to care much about it back then. There was no moral delima or anything.
I don't see why it should be a problem now either :P
Further more, don't take it for granted that all that raid 10 man prefer 10 man. Lead Encounter Dev and Lead Dev have pretty much confirmed it.
And guess what? THEY have the official numbers that no 10 man raider can question.
And what they see must be quite convincing for them to come out in the open and do those statements knowing how butthurt certain 10 man raiders would feel.

[Deleted]

What you just said here is that 25s are very unpopular with most people, and that the only reason they were ever as popular as they wer was because of the "carrot".

That being said, why should we provide a 25 man raid if we can provide players with a 10m format for which they don't need a carrot?

10 mans do have a carrot. It's the ability to get the same rewards for less effort and skill. Look at WotLK, the only reason 10s are popular today is the "carrot".

[Deleted]

10 mans do have a carrot. It's the ability to get the same rewards for less effort and skill. Look at WotLK, the only reason 10s are popular today is the "carrot".

According to blizzard, the tuning is the same between 25 and 10, only the logistics are different.

There is nothing inherebntly more difficult about 25 man raiding - it's all up to blizzards tuning. See LFR for details.

[Sonrisa]

Why do you keep going RPG this RPG that Injin?, WoW raiding has never been about just looting and hitting bosses while staying on the bad stuff, there's always been mechanics you have to work around, on every single encounter. Seriously who cares if the bads die to normal modes? There is LFR now where you can literally do nothing and get carried to victory while enjoying raiding in all its epicness.

[Deleted]

According to blizzard, the tuning is the same between 25 and 10, only the logistics are different.

So what? Blizzard is well known for not having a clue what they're doing or saying.

---------- Post added 2012-11-24 at 02:27 PM ----------

That is obviously now how things will go down, And you know it since you wouldnt suggest the solution unless you expected it to pouch a MAJOR chunk of 10m guilds. Really how dumb do you think i am?

So people don't really want to raid 10s and would do 25s instead. Why should 10s then be artificially propped up instead of just left to die?

[KaPe]

If they care so much about it have the GM and the officers take 10k gold a week just for the work of getting the raid together, I mean noone should object since we have heard how hard work it is so 10k from the guildbank every week for every officer. Guilds can fix this problem without blizzards help and really if you made 10k a week from just running your guild it sounds like a good paying endeavo.

Why in the world would I want gold for being an officer in 25 man guild? I've been one for years and my recruitment situation wouldn't change at all with this. Oh sure, you might get some wannabe officers trying to get that extra gold, but for average member this doesn't change anything. Hell, it makes things worse - "why does this guy gets 10k every week and doesn't have to farm anything? maybe *I* should become an officer too? /gquit, /gcreate another guild".

Wait, this was /sarcasm, right?

Changes should affect entire guild - be it something that's available to all member, or by making recruitment easier. The former are good old things like mass summons, cauldrons, etc. - minor QoL improvements that make you waste less time outside your primary activity. On their own, they probably aren't enough. The latter? Cross realm raiding, free transfers/faction changes. Things that are generally outside the game itself. 'Course, that would cut directly into Blizzard profit, so I doubt it will happen. Allowing free transfers instead of demanding $$? Blasphemy.

[Deleted]

Why do you keep going RPG this RPG that Injin?, WoW raiding has never been about just looting and hitting bosses while staying on the bad stuff, there's always been mechanics you have to work around, on every single encounter. Seriously who cares if the bads die to normal modes? There is LFR now where you can literally do nothing and get carried to victory while enjoying raiding in all its epicness.

That's not true, for most of vanilla, TBC and wrath the majority of fights were simply there until you overgeared them.

Plenty of resist fights as well. Go and farm x type gear, come back with more numbers, win.

Certainly nothing like as intricate as they are at present.

As for "bads", once again someone on the forum mistakes good for normal and normal for bad. A bad player is one who struggles to kill normal mobs out in the world. A good player is in a top raiding guild, everyone else is in the middle - and firestanding, poor execution players are conpletely normal.

[Deleted]

[...] and firestanding, poor execution players are conpletely normal.

A nice Freudian slip.

[Deleted]

A nice Freudian slip.

Ypu've got more faith in my typing fimgers than I do.

[nehunter]

I have 1 more suggestion: fast spawning, HARD world bosses, that would make you wanna be in a large guild.

[Oxyra]

Hey,

Yeah I get that was the point you're making. You also need to keep in mind MoP is now 2 months old, and we were coming from overgeared post-nerf DS which skews perception. There's no nerfs yet for MoP. In Wrath, Undergeared did all post-nerf. While they only raided once a week (on this project), they knew the tactics well from their mains. Also, you have to keep in mind that before DS was FL (not very PuG friendly) and LFR was a last minute addition. Due to LFR, I believe it is alright to have 10m/25m normal harder (as they are now). Add to that, the first tier is always a bit harder because people need to level and gear up (no N/HC gear from previous raid), there's no alts available (except for hardcore raiders who quickly level those up as well), whereas when say DS came out people were facerolling FL HC post-nerf.

Plus, well, we pretty much cleared MSV normal mode without much if any epics.

I didn't check your numbers. I couldn't find a source, so I quit reading them pretty quickly. Do your numbers take into account mains and alts? Do you account for LFR being raiding content which for some players means they won't do 10/25 N? Also, you can't compare yet. As I said MoP is 2 months old, we are in pre-nerf stage.

Since the numbers are based off guilds specifically, it actually for the most part removes overlap from mains/alts, as most people have their mains/alts in the same guild.
A 25man kill counts as the guild, but if there's 35 people in the guild that contributed, it only counted as 25 people, etc.etc.
You get the point.

Data is from WoWProgress.com

---------- Post added 2012-11-25 at 01:04 AM ----------

I have 1 more suggestion: fast spawning, HARD world bosses, that would make you wanna be in a large guild.

They already said they learned from their lesson that they want to make the rarer Galleon style bosses more like Kazzak etc. ie. you can actually wipe on them instead of herpderp 150 players zerging boss down via GY.

Sha and its' successors aren't world bosses in that sense though, they're just a more open VoA/BH.

[Maleric]

10s. You get to run with ALL your friends. You get more interesting mechanics in the fight. The logistics are about as hard as 5 man but much easier than 25s. You get a more interesting social dynamic. About the only reason for you to run a 5 man would be if you didn't have enough friends online sometime throughout the week.

Why is there still a debate on this? Sure, you want to make a point - but its a lousy example for the point you want to make.

That's not convincing, at all. The same dynamics that cause people to choose 10s over 25s now would cause people to choose 5s over 10s if that was an option. Your counter-argument - 10s would allow people to run with "all" their friends, have more interesting fight mechanics, and allow more interesting social dynamics - rely on arbitrary assumptions and could just as easily be used to argue that 25s should be more attractive than 10s.

I'm sure you'll respond by quoting this post sentence by sentence and/or continuing to repeat the same ridiculous argument ad nauseum until I lose interest (which will be fast), but it really should be blindingly obvious. People will usually choose whatever raid size gives them the easiest access to good loot and achievements. And "player preference" for easy loot and achievements obviously shouldn't dictate long term game design. Game design should be dictated by what provides players with long term enjoyment. If that's 10s, fine, if it's 25s, also fine, and if it's both 10s and 25s, that's fine but unlikely. But the fact that most players currently choose 10s is not relevant evidence, at all.

[Deleted]

@Maleric You started good but ended bad. 10s provides easyer access (logistic point of view) to the content but by no means provide easy loot. That's the fact a lot of people who didn't raid 10s and 25s this tier understand. People "were" used to see the lesser number raid size as something easy, inferior, entry level, but that's not the case now.

In the current state with it being equal is allows the freedom to choose your path, a very good system. I so don't agree with forcing the players to go one way by trivialising one of them. At least it doesn't make it a fair game.

[nehunter]

I think we're forgetting something. As much as everyone wants to have epic raids with lots of people( think of your first time in AV), not all PCs can handle larger raids, and you can't assume people upgrade their PCs for games. A big part of the success of WoW is the fact that it supports older hardware, resulting in more customers.

I think Blizzard is happy the vast majority of raiders prefers 10man raid.

[scadouche]

I think we're forgetting something. As much as everyone wants to have epic raids with lots of people( think of your first time in AV), not all PCs can handle larger raids, and you can't assume people upgrade their PCs for games. A big part of the success of WoW is the fact that it supports older hardware, resulting in more customers.

I think Blizzard is happy the vast majority of raiders prefers 10man raid.

An average computer can handle anything in WoW these days. You do not need a super machine to run 25 man.

[nehunter]

these days.

I don't think you understood.
Think of people that had average computers 4-5 years ago, and never bothered to buy a new one.

[kosechi]

An average computer can handle anything in WoW these days. You do not need a super machine to run 25 man.

no, but it helps.

if you are a competent player the performance change going from playing at 30fps on low to 60fps on ultra is enormous, even in a neutered 10 man.

[Maleric]

@Maleric You started good but ended bad. 10s provides easyer access (logistic point of view) to the content but by no means provide easy loot. That's the fact a lot of people who didn't raid 10s and 25s this tier understand. People "were" used to see the lesser number raid size as something easy, inferior, entry level, but that's not the case now.

In the current state with it being equal is allows the freedom to choose your path, a very good system. I so don't agree with forcing the players to go one way by trivialising one of them. At least it doesn't make it a fair game.

When I said 10s was "easy" I was comparing the formats as wholes, including logistics. Not much reason to argue about actual difficulty when logistics alone make 10s a lot easier to do than 25s.

And unfortunately, there is currently no real choice between 10s and 25s. There are very few 25s raiding guilds left, and they're dying faster than they're being made. And this isn't because players "prefer" tens, except from a pure effort vs. reward perspective. People do 10s because it's easier to organize, not because they (or the developers) have made any sort of rational determination that it's a better format.

[Daggyz]

You can technically say it's the developers fault in way, because after all they are the ones who changed it to drop the same loot as 25. How about this idea though.

10 mans: drops lower ilvl loot like they did in WotLK, and has a chance or always drops one piece of loot equiv to 25 man ilvl

This way it cuts down the easiness of obtaining the best gear easily in 10 man while still being able to so it's not 100% unfair to 10 man raiders. But it puts the hand in favor of 25 man because it's 100% chance to drop the highest ilvl gear.