Midwinter - Heroic Tsulong Exploit?

[Squirl]

Since when did high end raiding become about who could figure out the cleverest way to kill the boss with avoiding as much of the encounter as possible. Wall strats, combustion on amber-shaper un'sok to avoid phase 2, this which makes the fight dramatically easier. I mean when is the line drawn? The fact that they did this for a Top 5 US kill and guilds after that will be more challenged because they can't do this.

This has been happening for a very, very long time. It's just more visible now.

[Shampro]

You do not think blizzard forgetting about old tier, and setbonuses, when they are removing other effects that could have done the same as the one described in op post ?

They oversaw quite a few things that can be abused on the fight, if thats not blizzards fault....

My logic is fine btw ^^

---------- Post added 2012-11-24 at 10:52 AM ----------



missed the point ? how about using some argument that doesnt come back and hit you in the face because you werent creative enough to come up with something else.

Go kill something prenerf and come whine afterwards, maybe you are lucky and they have not removed this "exploit" from tsulong, and you will receive your first prenerf kill. go get em

Haha now resorting to the ''go kill something pre nerfed'' bs. Defending exploits, yes,exploits doesn't make you look like a better raider, quite the contrary actually. And its really cute that you think that im attacking, since you are in such a defense, I dont care at all about the guild, i dont care whatever happens to them afterwards ,because im sure they know they did something unintended, i just think people like you, who the defend exploits are stupid. And then call themselves, ''real raider'' afterwards.

[Lucyinthesky]

Keep trying.

[HamSandwichFace]

it's an exploit.

immersion, scrubbusters, wraith all used it too.

pretty bad stuff like this never gets tested.

[Lucyinthesky]

Im not defending the exploit, im just saying nothing is gonna happen, like usually, blizzard made some mistakes while removing some abilities that would seriously cheese the encounter.

Yours, or anyone else whine in here over something they can barely explain certianly doesnt help anything, just makes you look jelly/butthurt/xxx/xxx you find a suitable name for it and go with that.

[Squirl]

it's an exploit.

immersion, scrubbusters, wraith all used it too.

pretty bad stuff like this never gets tested.

It was tested. Blizzard doesn't listen to feedback. See post #8: Shamans are increasing his max hp in day phase.

[Deleted]

This has been happening for a very, very long time. It's just more visible now.

Biased blog. He just mentioned Paragons LFR exploitation, but ignored Anubarak Holy Wrath and Nefarian feral bleeds.

---------- Post added 2012-11-24 at 11:21 AM ----------

It was tested. Blizzard doesn't listen to feedback. See post #8: Shamans are increasing his max hp in day phase.

Dude, its intended that restro shaman increase the health of healed targets with their spells. But it was never intended that a druid should wear a 4pc from lv 85 to neglate a whole phase.

[Deleted]

A 4-set bonus working as intended now is described as "exploiting"? Cmon neckbeards you have to have better things to come up with than this.

Don't insult others - ML

[Squirl]

Biased blog. He just mentioned Paragons LFR exploitation, but ignored Anubarak Holy Wrath and Nefarian feral bleeds.

---------- Post added 2012-11-24 at 11:21 AM ----------



Dude, its intended that restro shaman increase the health of healed targets with their spells. But it was never intended that a druid should wear a 4pc from lv 85 to neglate a whole phase.

Anything that increases the boss's HP works the same way. Stacking 4pc after RC was removed is simply taking it to an extreme.

Also, the fact that they don't mention every single exploit in the entire history of WoW is irrelevant. This has been happening since Rag or earlier.

[Deleted]

Anything that increases the boss's HP works the same way. Stacking 4pc after RC was removed is simply taking it to an extreme.

How does a class mechanic (minor bug) and using an expansion old tier set is working the same way? Please, enlighten me.

[Squirl]

How does a class mechanic (minor bug) and using an expansion old tier set is working the same way? Please, enlighten me.

They both increase the max hp of the boss... not sure what else there is to say. I already said stacking 4pc is taking it to an extreme, but it's the same base mechanic.

[Lorentz]

[BL video] , you're welcome.

Video proves nothing. One cannot see all buff on Tsulong during Day phase.

[eschatological]

The problem with the old 4pc of bear druids was that it applied frenzied regen to the whole raid. When MoP came around, FR became the "rage dump for survivability" abiliy that guardians got, analogous to shield block for warriors and holy shield for paladins. Because the old 4 set didn't really translate any more, it was changed to Survival Instincts, which was then broken into the "max health" portion of SI with Might of Ursoc, and the shield wall portion into the new SI. The actual effect of the guardian 4pc changed from a raid wide heal to a raid wide max-health thing, something which was never seen in actual raiding as the change to a Might of Ursoc proc happened after t13 was irrelevant, both level wise and ilvl wise.

When Valithria was out, there were no set bonuses which conferred raid wide status to normally individual abilities, or they would have seen this then. We've already seen it twice in this tier, and it's quite obviously an exploit, an exploit being an unintended use of mechanics.

Please keep in mind, too, that this is exploiting the behavior of the particular ability conferred by Might of Ursoc. MoU confers 30% max and current health. If I'm at 50k out of 100k, and 1) I pop MoU, I shoot up to 65k out of 130k. 2) Say you then heal me 35k, to 100k. When MoU ends, I have 10/13ths of my max health, so what MoU does is 3) first it negates the max health, putting me down to 100k, and 4) then putting my current health as the same percentage that 100k/130k ~= 77k. The problem is, the mechanic in this fight has a win state of 100% health wins, so between step 3 and 4 the encounter just ends.

[Vapo]

Biased blog. He just mentioned Paragons LFR exploitation, but ignored Anubarak Holy Wrath and Nefarian feral bleeds.

Probably because holy wrath was working as intented since it never DRd before that and was clever use of game mechanics that blizzard later on decided that it wasnt working how they wanted on that boss. Feral bleeds also was bad boss design, not exploit. Only reason people say it was exploit is because blizzard changed the mechanic after first kill, instead of waiting for a while.

[eschatological]

Video proves nothing. One cannot see all buff on Tsulong during Day phase.

You can pretty clearly see they're using 3 druids, 2 of whom are boomkins and their feral dies well before the phase. And, if you just watch the boss's health during day phase he's not spiking upwards.

[Barnabas]

Since when did high end raiding become about who could figure out the cleverest way to kill the boss with avoiding as much of the encounter as possible. Wall strats, combustion on amber-shaper un'sok to avoid phase 2, this which makes the fight dramatically easier. I mean when is the line drawn? The fact that they did this for a Top 5 US kill and guilds after that will be more challenged because they can't do this.

It's every guild's job to try out every possible way to defeat a boss. It's Blizzard's job to change strategies they don't see as appropriate. Blizzard is usually on the ball when it comes to making changes to raids so if you missed the boat and couldn't try out an easier method than it just sucks to be you. Not every strategy is gonna be found out during a beta. The bosses aren't left up for very long to allow proper testing from external sources so things like the one you saw on tv would be discovered. Sometimes Blizzard doesn't go through all the logs during the beta to find certain bugs they could fix. Blizzard is told about bugs and refuse to change them before things go live.

[Deleted]

Probably because holy wrath was working as intented since it never DRd before that and was clever use of game mechanics that blizzard later on decided that it wasnt working how they wanted on that boss. Feral bleeds also was bad boss design, not exploit. Only reason people say it was exploit is because blizzard changed the mechanic after first kill, instead of waiting for a while.

Yeah, it was intended that you could neglate the hardest phase of the boss.

With that logic, every exploit or "clever use of game mechanics" listened in the blog was just bad boss design or however you will call a bug.

[Deleted]

Correct me if not but I was under the assumption that it's labeled as exploit only if Blizzard decides to. It's yes a clever use of mechanics just as positioning or other class stacking tactics are, or using some specific gear set. Only instant exploits are the ones using third party software or a secquence of actions so that the encounter does not perform as intended, like one phase skiped or boss ability not being casted. If that is done repeatable, yes it's by far a pure exploit.

Other then that, if Blizzard does not label it as an exploit and just hotfix it so it won't work then you and not anyone can call it exploit. Like a trial, Blizzard is the judge and jury, OP's is the housewife watching the situation on TV and the top guilds are the possible culprit. So it's entirely up to Blizzard on how to judge the situation.

[Barnabas]

Correct me if not but I was under the assumption that it's labeled as exploit only if Blizzard decides to. It's yes a clever use of mechanics just as positioning or other class stacking tactics are, or using some specific gear set. Only instant exploits are the ones using third party software or a secquence of actions so that the encounter does not perform as intended, like one phase skiped or boss ability not being casted. If that is done repeatable, yes it's by far a pure exploit.

Other then that, if Blizzard does not label it as an exploit and just hotfix it so it won't work then you and not anyone can call it exploit.

I label it as abusive game mechanics. Blizzard may have the same opinion.

[Deleted]

@Barnabas: But we still have to wait and see what they rule. It's their game and we play by their rules. End of story.