Were raids to easy this tier?

[spaace]

Pretty sure, even after the tons of nerfs we did have sofar, people still complain that current tier is TOO HARD...

jokes, right?

[Galbrei]

not really, it's just the top world guilds have turned into something like championship teams with lots of sponsors and lots of money. they go about it in a very efficient way to get world 1st kills.

Pretty much this. Raids today are far more complicated then they used to be. Back in the day lots of raid fights were little more than Tank n' Spank, but the quality of players improved vastly over the years thanks to better addons, more experience and stronger incentives (sponsors and status).

[Sildor]

No. Sure, this tier didn't have those big 500 pull bosses, but other than that it was one of the hardest recent tiers.

[Banzhe]

It seems like world firsts just zipped past us. World first in the past seemed to sometimes take months. Do you think the raids were to easy this time around, or is world first not a good way to judge raids for the average playerbase.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I haven't completed even normal tier 14. I'm not personally saying that the tier was too easy, just that it seemed to go by faster then past tiers.

How can you judge the average raiding player (Which supposedly represents the majority of raiders, not players) by looking at the very top who spend 8+ hours per day on progression 5-6 days a week?

I'd assume your trolling, but given that even blizzard uses the top vs the buttom as sort of a measuring tool on when to implement nerfs.., I guess your not trolling

I'll take our own 25 as an example, 1/6Kmsv hc and 3/6hof (decided not to cheese anything by clearing on 10m), we could have progressed a lot more if there wasn't a constant turnover on trials each reset, but in either case that puts us in the average group.., and since progress is deciding if a tier is fine or easy I guess it's fine.., personal views always differ n' are often skewered.

[Osmeric]

For the average playerbase? No, definitly not.

In fact, the normal mode raids have proved to be much too hard. Lower skill raiding guilds were basically told LFR or GTFO,

I'll add that completion percentages for normal mode raids are pathetic, and even the number of players that have downed even normal SG isn't large.

[Squirl]

Judging by the amount of help threads for normal Gara'jal, Elegon, Garalon, Amber-Shaper, and quite a few other bosses, no. This tier has not been too easy for the average player.

[Gondlem]

In fact, the normal mode raids have proved to be much too hard. Lower skill raiding guilds were basically told LFR or GTFO,

By whom? Normal modes are only going to get easier given that there's a stacking buff coming and gear is improving week to week. 5.1 brings class buffs and new VP gear too. There's plenty of time before the next tier to clear normal mode, and the difficulty isn't too tough as it is anyway. I think the lower clearance rates compared to DS are related to the fact that there's so much more for "casual" players to do outside of raiding. I know people who haven't even bothered getting started with raiding yet because they've been busy with levelling, dailies, 5 mans, LFR, achievements etc. When DS came out there was nothing new to do aside from three 5 mans, so naturally way more people tried raiding and more people cleared it.

Plus you also had the 30% buff stacking up over time which will make this tier much easier too by the end.

[Yoshimiko]

It's not that raids are becoming easier or harder, it's that they're becoming more properly tuned.

What I mean by that is, if you look at Naxxaramas - the sheer numbers game was just too damn high. C'thun was not killable when he was released because people couldn't pull the DPS before he wiped the raid. Patchwerk simply had a retarded DPS check. Sapphiron had a batshit crazy heals, and dps check. Yogg 0 Lights was impossible on release without class stacking. 0% buff Heroic 25man LK was killed ONCE, ever. Brutallus was pretty much impossible unless you had a few Warglaives in your guild. M'uru was killed..I think twice? And both of them were pretty much lucky kills, pre-nerf.

It's just that blizzard is becoming better at tuning these fights. If only 10 or 25 people of 10,000,000+ are able to slay an enemy, I'd say that's poor tuning.

[Gondlem]

It's not that raids are becoming easier or harder, it's that they're becoming more properly tuned.

What I mean by that is, if you look at Naxxaramas - the sheer numbers game was just too damn high. C'thun was not killable when he was released because people couldn't pull the DPS before he wiped the raid. Patchwerk simply had a retarded DPS check. Sapphiron had a batshit crazy heals, and dps check. Yogg 0 Lights was impossible on release without class stacking. 0% buff Heroic 25man LK was killed ONCE, ever. Brutallus was pretty much impossible unless you had a few Warglaives in your guild. M'uru was killed..I think twice? And both of them were pretty much lucky kills, pre-nerf.

It's just that blizzard is becoming better at tuning these fights. If only 10 or 25 people of 10,000,000+ are able to slay an enemy, I'd say that's poor tuning.

A lot of this just isn't true. Yogg-0 was impossible without class stacking? Says who? Premonition got world third and IIRC they didn't have any more than 3-4 of any class. M'uru's kill rate looks very similar to Sha so far, a few in the first week, then a bunch more after a small nerf leading up to a major nerf a few months later. The other fights you mention were all fine and very killable on release with the exception of C'thun. The vast majority of "unkillable" fights in the past have been related to crippling bugs - like on Vashj, Kael'thas, Al'ar etc. Nothing to do with tuning.

Blizzard have gotten better at tuning fights and releasing them relatively bug free but this tier isn't a great example of that given what Vizier was like until it got hotfix nerfed twice, that nobody killed Sha before it had been hotfix nerfed, and several fights were released with major issues that made them easier than intended as well like Garalon, Amber Shaper, Tsulong etc.

That said I think difficulty is fine this tier for the most part, just a few fights that should have been a little more difficult on heroic.

[ddk]

LFR is child's-play. I don't pot or flask for it and don't even bother with proper rotations or priorities and happily get up and make a coffee during trash pulls. Why? Because it would only mean a few seconds difference between the trash being killed and not. That's how easy it's become.

Normal, however, is pretty damn nasty. Get chains, pools and mines on Stoneguards and it can be a nightmare. I don't think my guild will ever get to heroic.

[Garehn Vi-Brittania]

LFR fucked it up imo. before you had heroic dungeons then normal raids. not saying it took pros to down normal but you had to have a brain to complete it with blue gear. lfr gave free 472's and a group of 10 retards with 472's could clear normal. Its nice for people to see the content if they wanted to but I don't believe these tank n spanks should award 472's. and while im at it the heroic dungeons were way to easy and just as much of a tank n spank as lfr.

Personally: first time in normal we cleared all msv. i was just like really? next week we got H stone guards down and after that i was done.

[Talen]

[

It seems like world firsts just zipped past us. World first in the past seemed to sometimes take months.

Yes, they did.

And when players got through the gating by gearing up with resist gear, or when the bugs were fixed so those bosses were no longer effectively invincible, they still fell pretty quickly even in the good ol' days.

The truth is that with the way top guilds work now, world firsts in the first few hours or days are probably going to be the norm regardless of what else is done. The only way you can prevent it is by implementing some form of gating system such as that used in Sunwell, or the need to gear up with resist gear or tuning the final encounter so it is impossible unless your raid group is fully decked out with end level gera before you get to the final boss.

But if you have to put in an artificial gating mechanic - what's the point of doing so? You add a lot of poor mechanics and game systems to maintain an illusion of difficulty and end up simply integrating a time sink and grind into the game.

LFR is child's-play. I don't pot or flask for it and don't even bother with proper rotations or priorities and happily get up and make a coffee during trash pulls. Why? Because it would only mean a few seconds difference between the trash being killed and not. That's how easy it's become.

Which it needs to be. You are talking about a group of players, many of whom don't really care about raiding, many of whom don't care about coordination, in a group that almost literally cannot coordinate because you can't even guarantee they all speak the same language. You also have to assume a lower level of skill for the group overall.

It gives non-raiders extra content, it provides a way to introduce them to raids and it provides people with a quick, easy way to earn some VP and gear. However, if you are able to get any sort of cooridnation going within the group, its going to be steamrollered. And, being honest, I don't think there is any way around that, given the people LFR is aimed at.

EJL

[Deleted]

We just cleared MSV HC (done all normals) and it seems decently hard so far, I think we'll still be busy for another 1-2 months.

[WaitingforMoP]

No, I haven't cleared jack squat on normal mode even

and LFR was somewhat hard untill they nerfed it, people actually still wipe in LFR even

It's so bad, that I don't even care to raid anymore

In WOTLK normal mode raids were about as hard as LFR now is, and normal mode now is like heroic back then... it's stupid...

LFR Raiding now consists of :
Redundant rotating
Wipe fest
Succeed, and then get no loot
Succeed, and then get loot, but it's not the loot you actually want. No you can't have trinkets or weapons or tier tokens, a ring or a necklace or maybe a random pair of pants...maybe... but that's it

Normal mode raiding now consists of :
Redundant rotating
Multi-Hour wipe fest
NEVER Succeed.

Icing on the cake : You have NO IDEA why you're in the hive of gigantic bugs or whatever the case is, you don't even know why you're in there fighting them....

So I've lost the will to even raid.... I try to a bit on my Hunter only really and do at least Terrace on LFR, but I still hate it, and still get seemingly no loot....

[hasslehoof]

This tier's difficulty is comparative to DS, it's really not too hard. (few exceptions being vizier, empress, sha)

[Osmeric]

By whom?

A guild that was typical of Wrath raiding guilds, if they tried normal mode raids, will almost certainly have given up by this point. The numbers don't lie. If you add up the raid sizes of the guilds that have downed even a single boss in normal mode in this tier, in the US it comes to just a bit over 100,000 players. In EU it's a bit higher, but still small. The vast majority of players have not done squat in normal mode raids this tier, and with 5.1 coming up it's not because they haven't geared up yet.

I suspect many of those normal mode raid guilds will have give up permanently and/or fallen apart. There really was a difficulty hole for that group. It will be interesting to see Blizzard's reaction if normal mode completion stats do not greatly increase.

[Flaks]

Gating allowed more gearing up than many other bosses. Without the gear, Sha would have lasted longer.

This is a good point that I think most people have overlooked.

[Flaks]

[

Yes, they did.

And when players got through the gating by gearing up with resist gear, or when the bugs were fixed so those bosses were no longer effectively invincible, they still fell pretty quickly even in the good ol' days.

The truth is that with the way top guilds work now, world firsts in the first few hours or days are probably going to be the norm regardless of what else is done. The only way you can prevent it is by implementing some form of gating system such as that used in Sunwell, or the need to gear up with resist gear or tuning the final encounter so it is impossible unless your raid group is fully decked out with end level gera before you get to the final boss.

But if you have to put in an artificial gating mechanic - what's the point of doing so? You add a lot of poor mechanics and game systems to maintain an illusion of difficulty and end up simply integrating a time sink and grind into the game.



Which it needs to be. You are talking about a group of players, many of whom don't really care about raiding, many of whom don't care about coordination, in a group that almost literally cannot coordinate because you can't even guarantee they all speak the same language. You also have to assume a lower level of skill for the group overall.

It gives non-raiders extra content, it provides a way to introduce them to raids and it provides people with a quick, easy way to earn some VP and gear. However, if you are able to get any sort of cooridnation going within the group, its going to be steamrollered. And, being honest, I don't think there is any way around that, given the people LFR is aimed at.

EJL

Great points and agree on all accounts.

P.S. I've wondered what EJL stands for for a very long time.

[eschatological]

0% buff Heroic 25man LK was killed ONCE, ever.

Pretty sure Paragon killed it at 5%, and no one else killed it til a further debuff.

[Propainn]

Considering something like 2% of the raiding population cleared Sunwell, I'd say it was fairly difficult.

2% Killed HLK 25, 3% on Sinestra, 4% on H Al'akir, 7% on H Rag according to wowprogress. The final boss of most tiers besides DS was cleared by a small % of the player base. Idk why everyone thinks SWP was some magical exception.