5.1 25-man Raid Changes in Asia

[phyx]

Why the separate lockout? So 25mans would have an option of running a 10man IF they don't get enough raiders? That can only cause problems. 10guilds going apeshit because they can't raid 25 to have same gear, 25man guilds would probably have problems and drama with other 15-20 people being benched because "the skilled" group is farming gear.
They should keep the shared lockout, problem solved.

I disagree with the argument that they are gating content for KR because they are too HC for this. A simple look at Wowprogress proves that they are not burning trough the content. Also, the very top west guilds do in fact play 10-12-14h a day. Don't know why you think that they don't.

@EJL
Maybe they are experimenting what the general feedback will be. Granted, they did not do it ever before but also 25mans weren't in such a bad position until. They obviously need new tools on how to revive 25man scene.
It is the start of the expansion but according to numbers there a 2500 25mans out there that killed 1st boss in MSV which is just laughable at 60 000 25mans that killed Marrowgar. Yes there are 2 million less players but that is a very steep and large decline. DS FL had 5000 guilds killing 1st boss. Even that is pretty low. I don't see that number doubling at the end of this tier. From personal experience, I know a lot, and i mean a lot of people in 10s that would rather raid 25 but 10 is just more convenient, not preffered mind you, just less troubling.

Personally I raid 25mans, I've always preffered them and I will probably quit before joining a 10man. I don't hate 10man or anything, I just couldn't raid in an environment that doesn't feel massive and epic. A lot of other players that I've spoken to have similar thoughts on the subject.
I think this is the wrong way of reviving 25s. Ilvl advantage is too high and separate lockouts will cause nothing but drama and quitting.

[rogueMatthias]

Why the separate lockout? So 25mans would have an option of running a 10man IF they don't get enough raiders? That can only cause problems. 10guilds going apeshit because they can't raid 25 to have same gear, 25man guilds would probably have problems and drama with other 15-20 people being benched because "the skilled" group is farming gear.
They should keep the shared lockout, problem solved.

Seperate Lock out WONT be returning outside Asia.

In Asia, People pay for Hours played, rather than a subscription.
If you raid 10 man in the week, you can come on for the raid, then you can log off (and not pay for it) for the rest of the week.
If 25 man has a different lockout you come on 10 man raiding, then go on 25 man raiding, and will pay for time for both.

..it really does make sense from a money point of view for Blizzard at least.


I actually really like the idea of the upgraded loot in 25 man version though. It will give player a good speed boost for definate doing 25 man, and make the time and effort of doing 25 instead of 10 worhtwhile, but 10 will still get the same rewards, it will just take more time saving up Valor. Hope this change at least makes it in to EU/US versions.

[Belloc]

So... Blizzard buffed 25-man loot and now people are complaining that they buffed the bosses to match?

[Kevyne-Shandris]

Also, the very top west guilds do in fact play 10-12-14h a day.

Paragon and Vodka raid for 10-12-14h a day?

When?

[phyx]

@ Matthias
You can't possibly know that, and yes, for now it's only available in Asia.
@ Kevyne
So you are basically saying EU/US guilds raid Normal times? As in 7x5h or something? You don't get WFs by causally logging at 18.00 each day and finishing up at exactly 24.00. Not when US guilds have advantage.

[Kevyne-Shandris]

@ Kevyne
So you are basically saying EU/US guilds raid Normal times? As in 7x5h or something? You don't get WFs by causally logging at 18.00 each day and finishing up at exactly 24.00. Not when US guilds have advantage.

Also, the very top west guilds do in fact play 10-12-14h a day.

Paragon and Vodka (unless on world first runs) have a normal raiding schedule, which isn't 10-12-14hr runs a day.

[Talen]

Maybe they are experimenting what the general feedback will be. Granted, they did not do it ever before but also 25mans weren't in such a bad position until. They obviously need new tools on how to revive 25man scene.

They have never experimented with this issue before.
They don't need to experiment with this issue as the model has been previously in use, live, for up to 4 years.
An experiment in Korea/Asia will not give results that can be mapped into the NA/EU market due to various differences in cultures and economics.
Blizz have already stated its due to the local conditions.

They get nothing from an experiment of this nature. They don't need to do this experiment to justify bringing 25s to EU/NA.

In short, if the issue with 25s was so serious that it required major intervention of this sort - they'd not only just go ahead and fix it, they would have already done it during the XPac launch.

There is nothing for them to test. They know what will happen with this model when and if it goes live. 10s die. That's a given because, unlike format, gear is the priority for the players in this game and they will go for it, in large numbers. There is no need to test for feedback or anything else.

There is no experiment. Blizz altered the model to cater to the Asian market. Just like they said. Anyone saying otherwise is setting themselves up for disappointment. For this model to go live in NA/EU only one thing needs to happen - Blizzard needs to be willing to kill 10s and deal with the resulting backlash. And there is no sign that is going to happen.

Could I be wrong? Sure. But Blizzard has given a very plausible explanation for this system, nor do they have any need for an experiment, nor would they get any benefit from it. Are they willing to kill 10s? Maybe, but I see no sign of it. Are they willing to subject players and guilds to such massive disruption ingame? Not impossible....but probably not and if they were, 15 man raids would be a better solution and that also suggests no need for this experiment.

No - the idea this is an "experiment" appears to be something that was created by a few posters and has gained popularity because it offers something for those who want 25s to look forward to.

Based on what we know, I believe that will be turn out to be "major disappointment".

EJL

[Kevyne-Shandris]

There is no experiment. Blizz altered the model to cater to the Asian market. Just like they said. Anyone saying otherwise is setting themselves up for disappointment. For this mdoel to go live in NA/EU only one thing needs to happen - Blizzard needs to be willing to kill 10s and deal with the resulting backlash. And there is no sign that is goign to happen.

Would kill the guild concept, as most guilds are running 10mans. And from what I'm hearing from other guilds, even getting 10mans going is a chore right now.

Ain't happening.

[phyx]

Paragon and Vodka (unless on world first runs) have a normal raiding schedule, which isn't 10-12-14hr runs a day.

Of course we are talking about WFs. Why would you raid 12h a day on farm?

[KaPe]

So... Blizzard buffed 25-man loot and now people are complaining that they buffed the bosses to match?

They didn't buff the loot they already had? It'd be like bosses suddenly being tuned with assumption that everyone in your raid has 2/2 items. Except at most, you'd have 2.5 items upgraded by now.

[Saphyron]

fuck that, I don't want to raid shit twice in a week just so some hardcore 25 man fanboys can sleep better at night
I go with the "free market" point of view on that one and the majority of the market has spoken that they don't give a shit about 25 man unless they are forced to do it

the only solutions I would agree with is:
-kill 25 man, go 10 man only
-kill 25 and 10 man, go 15 man only

edit:
and please don't give me the "you don't have to" we all know that is bullshit

Well I would like option 2 remove 10man and 25man and bring 15man.

If they bring this to eu it will kill our guild. Cause we will be forced to do 25man for better gear. but we can barely assemble 2 10man teams.
(The second team has 2-3 members from Team 1 every week in it)

With 15man It would be possible for us to raid with everyone on specific days.

[Kevyne-Shandris]

Of course we are talking about WFs. Why would you raid 12h a day on farm?

Same reason stating Paragon and Vodka were raiding 10-12-14hrs a day, and repeatably.

---------- Post added 2012-12-02 at 12:18 AM ----------

Well I would like option 2 remove 10man and 25man and bring 15man.

Guilds are having a hard time with getting 10mans going right now. It won't address the continuing problem of less people raiding.

At this rate we'll be needing 5 man raids.

[Deleted]

But in the end, your guess is as good as mine.

Only I never made a guess, I simply pointed out that you know next to nothing about raiding, realms and other MMO's in Korea, but feel you can comment when they get offered something that might appeal to them more than the way things are currently set out..

You happen to be a Blizzard data analyst? blah blah blah

I never claimed to be (for blizzard anyway), however are you naive enough to believe blizzard doesn't have these type of people or information?

Let me circumvent anything else you feel you might want to share here with this simple fact:

It's happening.

Is it really that hard to believe that maybe, they know more about their customers than you do? and not just customers it's worth pointing out but the gaming culture of another country!

Someone a couple of posts below your wrote this:

I may be wrong but I was under the impression that the Korean WoW system was primarily gaming cafés and they pugged far more, and far more effectively (e.g. regular heroic mode pugs that clear raids), than most western countries' gamers. Assuming this is true it makes perfect sense to make the content more replayable and more flexible; their perspective on the game is very different to the western world.

Posts like this resort a little bit of faith in the world, someone who doesn't blindly assume that how they play and experience the game is the only way it'll happen.

[Deleted]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...anges-in-Korea

I am sorry Caud but nowhere in your link this



"-All 25 man bosses in asia are now having 10% health buffed (both normal and heroic)
-All 25 man bosses in asia are now having 8~10% damage buffed (both normal and heroic)"

is confirmed.
It would make sence for the upcoming tier.
It would also make sence for this tier IF the items already earned in 25 are upgraded (seems hard to happen).
Like this for the current tier is at least 1-2 weeks setback, before guilds are able to reach the level of progress they had till last Thursday (since we talk about Korea, Korea servers reset on Thursday).
But i ve seen nowhere a confirmed blue quote, or a link to the actual health frame of a boss (being 10% buffed) to conclude that this is actually true.

[ripponesan]

Interesting. It really seems they are experimenting. I hope this will never be on EU servers, don't want to be forced to do 25 man (Yes I would definetly go back if it would be superior)

And you are one of thge guys that are actually ruining it for us others.
Why that? Well you tell us you dont want to raid 25, and would rather avoid it. But in the same line you tell us, you would do it instantly if there was better loot.

So what does refine blizzard from this?
People dont want to do 25 mans, and if we improve the loot of 25 man raids, people will feel forced to do 25 mans raiding even if they dont want to.

[Grym]

They don't really have an edge on next tier due to having higher ilvl, the gear in 25man only higher level because they are already upgraded, so it is actually exactly the same loot in 10man, except you won't need to spend the VP to upgrade it further.

By next tier come all top guilds should have all of their BiS upgraded anyway, so the edge won't be there anymore.

PS. I am OK with this idea.

I prefer 10man, but obviously, if the loot is better, I will go back to 25man (always go for one with better loot), but now in this case, the "better loot" is only temporary as I can upgrade mine to match it, so now 25man got their "higher ilvl loot", and people like me won't be chasing the carrot and do 25man, I can just do 10man and upgrade the gear.