Shadowpriest 5.1 -Why cant blizzard see all our current faults and flaws?

[Frmercury]

Just chance the Mindflay glyph to allow MF to be cast while moving.

It would have to remove the slow component to MF and likely slow us a small amount so Locks don't complain too much.

[Yvaelle]

You're going to have a hard time convincing Blizzard that Shadowfiend/Mindbender, a spell that does large burst damage and scales with everything but mastery, isn't a cooldown.

Mindbender, in pve gear, deals about 300k damage - Shadowfiend will deal about the same (it hits very slightly harder, but lasts 3 seconds less than Mindbender, and is 3 times less common). For some fight mechanic or other burst is required, a Shadowpriest who normally deals 100k DPS pops their cooldowns (which is just Mindbender) and deals 100k DPS + 300k damage over the course of the next 15 seconds. Now let's compare the same situation for a burst window to classes with actual cooldowns:

Warrior:
Avatar - 20% more damage for 24 seconds. A warrior who deals 100k DPS now deals an additional 20k DPS for the next 24 seconds, result: 480,000 damage gained.
Recklessness - 50% additional critical hit chance for the next 12 seconds. A 50% increased chance to critically hit, ignoring synergistic effects (ie. Flurry), is a ~50% DPS increase. A warrior who deals 100k DPS who presses Recklessness deals 150k DPS for the next 12 seconds (if you average all Recklessness uses everywhere, which is the point), 50k * 12 seconds = 600,000 damage gained.
Skull Banner - 20% increased critical hit damage for the next 10 seconds. Assuming a 25% critical hit chance on a 100k DPS warrior, this results in 300,000 damage gained.

So that's 3 warrior burst cooldowns - all of them better than Mindbender/Shadowfiend, but of course, warriors don't pop them in isolation.

A 100k DPS warrior who presses Avatar deals 120k DPS for the next 24 seconds, who presses Recklessness deals 180,000 DPS, who presses Skull Banner deals 207,000 DPS for the next 10 seconds (1,070,000 damaged gained), at which point Skull Banner ends and they drop to 180,000 DPS for 2 seconds (160,000 damage gained), at which point Recklessness ends. They then retain Avatar for the next 12 seconds at 120k DPS (240,000 damage gained). Combined, a warrior during their burst cycle puts out an additional 1,470,000 damage - while Mindbender puts out 300,000 damage.

Warrior cooldowns are used here as an extreme - but they are not the only class who stacks burst cooldowns for the synergistic effect, Elemental shamans, Enhancement shamans, and BM hunters are all capable of about as much burst synergy as warriors. Shadow is the lowest burst DPS spec in the game - regardless of talent choices - so when the upper end of burst is over 5 times greater than our best choices, I don't think it should be too hard to convince Blizzard we're bad at burst.

[Deleted]

Well... A glyphed be is the strongest raid cd in the game, 3 orb DP and a MB will instantly top off your raid. So if they were to make us the number one dps class instead of a middle/high dps class what reason would you ever have to bring any other class other than classes for buffs? The answer is, you wouldn't.

I'm assuming you're talking about 10 man in this case? In 25 man my VE tickles the raid really so I can hardly count it as a viable cd, we're currently trying to line it up with all 3 shadowpriests together to make it at least tranq-worthy and if we're not getting any proccs at all it's still a bit of a letdown.

Also not asking for our dps to be buffed to warrior execute level but it would be nice if we'd at be able to push a little bit more single target dps as right now if my raid needs higher single target to beat an enrage without multi-targetting I'll be the one sticking my hand up to be replaced.

[Mogling]

I find that shadow fiend is doing closer to 500k dmg per use. For a single GCD its a great spell, Comparable to a locks doomguard with 1/3 the CD. The problem is they also have at least 3 other CDs on 1-2 min CDs

[Drye]

I'm assuming you're talking about 10 man in this case? In 25 man my VE tickles the raid really so I can hardly count it as a viable cd, we're currently trying to line it up with all 3 shadowpriests together to make it at least tranq-worthy and if we're not getting any proccs at all it's still a bit of a letdown.

Also not asking for our dps to be buffed to warrior execute level but it would be nice if we'd at be able to push a little bit more single target dps as right now if my raid needs higher single target to beat an enrage without multi-targetting I'll be the one sticking my hand up to be replaced.

Nope 25 heroics, my glyphed VE with a 3 ord D and mb does an insane amount of healing. I have no clue what you are doing.

Mindbender, in pve gear, deals about 300k damage - Shadowfiend will deal about the same (it hits very slightly harder, but lasts 3 seconds less than Mindbender, and is 3 times less common). For some fight mechanic or other burst is required, a Shadowpriest who normally deals 100k DPS pops their cooldowns (which is just Mindbender) and deals 100k DPS + 300k damage over the course of the next 15 seconds. Now let's compare the same situation for a burst window to classes with actual cooldowns:

My mindbender usually does around a million dmg. Are you in 410 gear?

[Yvaelle]

My mindbender usually does around a million dmg. Are you in 410 gear?

Attacks for 80% of spellpower every ~1.2 seconds, lasts 15 seconds.

30k spellpower * (15 / 1.2) = 288k

Soooo, you have about 120,000 spellpower? ;p

[Deleted]

I get around 4-500k from shadowfiend in actual use, never seen even close to 1 million.

As for VE being bad, I can get 800k+ healing from it generally - I usually use it unglyphed as it overheals less that way (10 man), that's pretty comparable with the heal output of say, tranq. On fights with gimmick dps mechanics (Elegon for an extreme example) you can get a lot more healing out.

[soulyouth]

We just switch from 25m to 10m and are working on Heroic Vizier, and I find myself unable at all to keep up on this fight, like really far behind, I have no idea what I could even do to cheese it, I get tof procs off star sometimes when the tank dips, I just feel like a total burden on the raid, makes me not want to raid at all, I've tried different talent setups but none seem to help, it's bad enough starting without 3orbs since the marmet nerf, By the time we go into the final phase I'm luck if I'm over 70k, I know I should be a tad lower cause I soak 2 Force and Verves but I feel like I'm missing something.

[Deleted]

Haven't actually read through all the pages so don't know if it's been pointed out before, but I really dont find Shadowpriests are lacking a whole lot.
Some encounters we get to shine in dps-wise, such as Elegon and Will of the Emperor, the obvious other ones being the ones where we get to multidot blessing us with instant procs making movement really easy (in my opinion), and other encounters we are truly valuable due to MD (which seems to be a bitch for healers due to mana), PoM whilst the entire needs to run, Halo/Cascade healing depending on the fight, we can save a tank (or ourselves for that matter) with Void Shift, grip people with brainlag away from danger, do excellent kiting due to our own Shields and Disp, we have Fear ward for encounters such as Empress and Sha, and the list goes on.

I realize some people really like cheesing dmg, but the fact remains we are a hybrid class, and me for one enjoy a Shadowpriest purely due to that reason. I don't feel the need to be top dps if I know I've saved a few lives and assisted Healers where needed, shouldn't that encounter for more than spamming Firebolts ignoring everything else around? Guess that's up to each and everyone's playing style, but I'm quite happy with my priest just the way it is.

[snaxattax]

there was no hybrid tax in cata, and there was supposed to be no hybrid tax in mop. the only reason our single target dps is so bad (and it is bad - you can't justify bringing a spriest to a progression night on a single target fight when a warlock does 20%+ more damage) is because of two mechanics they took out of the spriest toolkit in mid beta: archangel and mindflay/shadowfiend.

[Drye]

Attacks for 80% of spellpower every ~1.2 seconds, lasts 15 seconds.

30k spellpower * (15 / 1.2) = 288k

Soooo, you have about 120,000 spellpower? ;p

You are forgetting int/haste procs. I have around 35k sp, I started looking at how much it did on use and every time it's around 650-900k. When I get home ill post a MB log to show. But 300k is really small, but still is considered a dps cd. As Acia said, I think it would be harder to prove to the mmo-c community that it is a viable cd than trying to explain to the devs why it isn't.

[snaxattax]

i have no idea how you are getting a 900k mindbender, unless you're including some sort of encounter-specific damage taken debuff. 400-600k is usually where my mindbenders are in terms of damage done, depending on crit/glance/procs.

even then, if you compare the damage a spriest does with mindbender/shadowfiend to a warlock without using doomguard, they're still doing nearly 20% more. just look at, for example, tayyak logs. a good/high damage spriest is doing 75-78k, whereas a good/high aff lock is over 90k. the absolute top spriest (25 man) is under 85k, but there's an aff lock with over 110k, and several with 100k+.

[Kaesebrezen]

than trying to explain to the devs why it isn't.

Here:
- Self CDs scale with all stats -> Shadowfiend/Mindbender doesn't. (take a look at your simcraft statweights you posted on h2p)
- No CD Stacking - PI only provides Spellhaste... (but the fault here is PI being garbage)
- Shadowfiend/Mindbender does not scale with some (rare) encounter mechanics (honorable mention - Millhouse Manastorm).
- (mostly for trash) is strictly single target

i have no idea how you are getting a 900k mindbender,

900k is only with full procs + bloodlust. (As bloodlust/Essence of Terror haste proc add 2-3 hits each)

[Aica]

even then, if you compare the damage a spriest does with mindbender/shadowfiend to a warlock without using doomguard, they're still doing nearly 20% more. just look at, for example, tayyak logs. a good/high damage spriest is doing 75-78k, whereas a good/high aff lock is over 90k. the absolute top spriest (25 man) is under 85k, but there's an aff lock with over 110k, and several with 100k+.

And we should make up all of this damage with a Cooldown?

[soulyouth]

And we should make up all of this damage with a Cooldown?

a buff to mb and flay tbh if thye buff out dots they risk our dot cleave getting out of control, I for one would love to see flay do more

Don't get me wrong I'd love a cd, but lets be honest blizzard are not going to do it, they are more likely to just adjust our numbers

[snaxattax]

you could reasonably fix most of the damage gap between us and warlocks with a stronger mindflay and a cooldown which we could use while potting/lusting/execute-range that buffs flay/blast/death/DP (can have it be less effective vs players in the same way colossus smash and gag order work).

hell, most of it could probably be fixed by just re-implementing just the old evangelism/archangel from cata.

also, dot cleaving 'out of control'? aff locks have higher damage dots, and can cast all theirs in an instant GCD while moving. spriests are only close on heroic will because warlocks cant also seed spam the entire time because of how most people handle the adds at the end of the fight. on reg will? similar gear/skill warlock vs spriest, the warlock still pumps out an extra 10% dps on these fights due to superior dots + cooldowns at the end.

[Relapses]

One potential fix that I believe is very real and not unreasonable at all is an ability (with a cooldown) which allows us to get 3 Orbs. (Similar to how they fixed Boomkins with an ability to start in whichever Eclipse they'd like.) Starting your rotation with a 3 Orb DP gives SPriests a significant amount of front end burst (of course, this tapers off drastically after 10-20 seconds, but it's still nice). Also, giving us back AA probably wouldn't break things in PvP too much and it'd also provide us with something to play around with during burn phases.

[Karei]

Dark Archangel as a pure DPS cooldown for x seconds without the managain like we had in Cata and the need to stack Evangelism to 5 first would be an awesome feat.

Since they're both named differently it can bz a new spell and the Archangel that healing priests have can remain untouched. That and a slightly higher scaled Vampiric Touch and Mind Flay and I would like playing again.

As it stands now VT hits harder per tick but lasts shorter than SWP and doesn't have the initial damage.
I still don't get why VT isn't the harder hitting one of the two, especially since it's spec related.
I mean, it's our signature dot for christ sake. You used to have to invest talent points to get it and the result of baseline spells it suddenly gone to shit...
Here, go shadow and you get Wet Noodle Touch free...

[Deleted]

You can't give Shadow Priests a cooldown right now. It is a horrible suggestion to boost our overall damage. Giving us an Archangel type of CD would make us insanely overpowered in PvP.

If Blizzard were to buff us any time soon it would most likely be number tweaking. Not redo our talents. Buffing our VT and SWP damage seems good enough.

[Drye]

You can't give Shadow Priests a cooldown right now. It is a horrible suggestion to boost our overall damage. Giving us an Archangel type of CD would make us insanely overpowered in PvP.

If Blizzard were to buff us any time soon it would most likely be number tweaking. Not redo our talents. Buffing our VT and SWP damage seems good enough.

Agreed. They had a lot of changes to the spec that were really good on beta.

-MBlasts CD scaling with haste is a great.
-SW giving two orbs below 20% was amazing, it had great flow and felt right.
-Our dots need a buff, that's pretty simple. Even if they get buffed we would only be on par with aff locks.
-I would like to see something fun with SApps, they are just a boring mechanic. I wouldn't mind if when they hit we get an orb or a %buff would be nice.
-Adding an extra mechanic to MB or MF would be nice, I really like the way AFF locks works right now. MB having soothing like haunt and MF having something like mgrasp.
- PI needs a buff, I like yvalles idea of adding 5% passive haste to it. Obviously numbers would be need to be tweaked but I really like the idea.
- SW;I needs to either be scrapped or do an insane amount of dmg to make up for it. I would much rather jsut have them throw the idea away and give us something new.
-I wouldn't mind buffing mastery's scaling. I like the way mastery synergies with our talents and rotation.

i have no idea how you are getting a 900k mindbender, unless you're including some sort of encounter-specific damage taken debuff. 400-600k is usually where my mindbenders are in terms of damage done, depending on crit/glance/procs.

These are lusted and procs at the start. Tonight it was doing from 850-1.5mil dmg. The 1.5mil was higher because of the lei's hope buff.

http://i.imgur.com/P1f4H.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/c3Faf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2olwG.jpg