[General] Frost > Fire?

[zephid]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...um/damageDone/

It does seem like his dps dipped quite a bit from his usual top 2 every night self, but he was still pulling numbers that outweigh frost by a large margin. He was also complaining about not critting as often and melee was actually able to compete with him, but it didn't prevent us from downing bosses.

That is no where near "insane" dps. He was #3 at best, and even then he was 10-15k dps behind the #1 guy. Fire got a huge nerf.

---------- Post added 2012-12-02 at 03:54 PM ----------

So hear this. I just did a 5 minute near-perfect play test on the single target dummy for 5 minutes with all CDs used in only normal mage buffs and here is what I got at ilevel 495.

Fire: 75k dps at 5 minutes
Frost: 79k dps at 5 minutes
Arcane 89k dps at 5 minutes

You guys decide.

Those numbers are useless, 5 minutes is no where near long enough to get anything that resembles reliable results. You would need to run that test at least 25000 times to get rid of the RNG.

[Darkender]

That is no where near "insane" dps. He was #3 at best, and even then he was 10-15k dps behind the #1 guy. Fire got a huge nerf.

---------- Post added 2012-12-02 at 03:54 PM ----------


Those numbers are useless, 5 minutes is no where near long enough to get anything that resembles reliable results. You would need to run that test at least 25000 times to get rid of the RNG.

Lol they aren't USELESS. That currently shows the trend on simcrafting as well. It follows the SAME TREND as simcraft at the moment. Believe me, arcane is definitely better unless it's a very heavy aoe fight. Single target it's no contest - arcane is the superior spec at the moment if you know how to play and move

[Bakis]

From what I gather the nerf is severe to undergeared people, ilvl 490 fire is just as good as previously.
It is sad that it hits chars that newly geared but there are still other viable mage specs for them.
Overall I applaud BLZ for nerfing fire especially since it doesnt seem to impact later on to the extent it does now.

[Darkender]

From what I gather the nerf is severe to undergeared people, ilvl 490 fire is just as good as previously.
It is sad that it hits chars that newly geared but there are still other viable mage specs for them.
Overall I applaud BLZ for nerfing fire especially since it doesnt seem to impact later on to the extent it does now.

No

You are very very wrong. I am ilevel 495 as fire. I lost nearly 20% of my dps single target. -20%- This is NOT Nearly as good. It is now the WORST of the 3 dps specs at my ilevel.

[zephid]

Lol they aren't USELESS. That currently shows the trend on simcrafting as well. It follows the SAME TREND as simcraft at the moment. Believe me, arcane is definitely better unless it's a very heavy aoe fight. Single target it's no contest - arcane is the superior spec at the moment if you know how to play and move

Yes it does, but your test could just as easily have shown the opposite. 5 minutes is NOT enough time to get rid of RNG, any decent theorycrafter out there would tell you that.

[huth]

Yes it does, but your test could just as easily have shown the opposite. 5 minutes is NOT enough time to get rid of RNG, any decent theorycrafter out there would tell you that.

Well, the difference is big enough to ensure that Arcane is the top-spec for killing training dummies.

[Deleted]

Well, the difference is big enough to ensure that Arcane is the top-spec for killing training dummies.

But the difference suggests that arcane could be better on low movement fights. I wouldn't wonder that when you ignore those fire mages logs from before the nerfs, arcane mages will dominate on SOME fights.

Arcane on the other side simply has it's downsides. So that's why arcane needs to have a higher single target dps than fire. We still need some logs from really good mages, not those low dps logs people keep posting here. Especially since fire still has a lot of RNG and thus, without any better skill, your dps can easily be 10 or 15% better without any reason except more RNG.

[Shmeh]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...um/damageDone/

It does seem like his dps dipped quite a bit from his usual top 2 every night self, but he was still pulling numbers that outweigh frost by a large margin. He was also complaining about not critting as often and melee was actually able to compete with him, but it didn't prevent us from downing bosses.

Those are not even close to good numbers. That's fucking awful. I have most of his kills beat by 50-100% damage.

[Alvito]

Well, the difference is big enough to ensure that Arcane is the top-spec for killing training dummies.

Well until they make a raid filled with training dummies that info can be interpreted many different ways and complete ignored as well.

[Zavri]

I did elegon in LFR for shits and giggles. Take from it what you will.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h...6&e=6615#Zavri

[Zechs-cenarius]

fucked fire over? you guys have been topping parses on almost every single fight, I don't necessarily think it's that big of an issue. Isn't frost bottom of the parses for 25m? our mage tonight in HoF was still pushing insane numbers :P

Funny how you sit there and claim fire mages have been topping parses on almost every single fight but WoL and raidbots would beg to differ. Top 100 parses for the WORLD is not indicative of a spec being "OP" its indicative only of those players that play that spec/class.

[Jaylol]

So hear this. I just did a 5 minute near-perfect play test on the single target dummy for 5 minutes with all CDs used in only normal mage buffs and here is what I got at ilevel 495.

Fire: 75k dps at 5 minutes
Frost: 79k dps at 5 minutes
Arcane 89k dps at 5 minutes

You guys decide.

Patchwerk dummy =/= real raid environment. It's almost as bad as purely relying on sims to determine what class/spec is better. Not to mention, 5 minutes is nowhere near long enough to get at least somewhat accurate results.

As for the OP, I'm guessing we'll see the top fire mages still do more dps than any of the top arcane/frost mages, but overall, I think frost/arcane may be higher/even with fire. It all depends on the gear really. The higher ilvl you go, the more fire scales and pulls ahead. Frost has terrible gear scaling so it's hard to say at this point in time. Just wait it out and see, play whatever you feel comfortable playing.

Also, all these logs on LFR and whatnot for 1 person doesn't provide any information at all to this situation.
1. It's LFR
2. Theres not much to compare it to unless you provide another log of the same fight, approximately same duration, pre-nerf.
3. It's 1 individual.

[Deleted]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/j40cpxvb91lrezfd/ - A log from tonight.

http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/...-Nerub/utsegi/ - So you can decide for yourself if 'I'm too bad for the log to be considered'

I tried out Frost with not much previous practice - I knew the basics but only had about 5 mins on a dummy to try and get comfortable with it. I also only changed a couple reforges, namely getting more haste. I think I had around 25-27% raid buffed. Possibly more.

Will and Blade Lord was first kills and (especially Blade Lord) I feel I played quite bad compared to what I normally do (62% uptime on Invoker's /hide !)

When I was playing Fire, I definitely noticed both nerfs for what it's worth. I definitely agree Combustion needed knocking back, but not by 50%. I feel it's just a random button to use now instead of a shiny CD you are exited to use. What was more worrying to me was not the damage component from the CM nerf, but the flow of the spec and smart use of Heating Up! / Inferno Blast / Pyro! which could result in better damage than Joe next to you. Now I just sort of seem to wait more and more for a Heating Up! and fire off a Pyro! Or at least, that's how it feels. In essence, it felt alot more boring to play!

[Rekindled]

I like how Hitpoint refereed to 60k as a fire mage (on grand emp)insane numbers. Below average to say the least. However, as to the OP's question cleave fights will still be fire, especially garalon or Heroic Windlord. But in most other cases I would expect to see frost as the new spec.

[Zavri]

I like how Hitpoint refereed to 60k as a fire mage (on grand emp)insane numbers. Below average to say the least. However, as to the OP's question cleave fights will still be fire, especially garalon or Heroic Windlord. But in most other cases I would expect to see frost as the new spec.

why do you and other people think fire will still be good on cleave fights when the main damage from cleaving was nerfed to the ground? Frost is WAY better at cleaving with the ice lance glyph and frozen orb. Even Arcane can cleave better then fight in it's current state.

[voltaa]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...um/damageDone/

It does seem like his dps dipped quite a bit from his usual top 2 every night self, but he was still pulling numbers that outweigh frost by a large margin. He was also complaining about not critting as often and melee was actually able to compete with him, but it didn't prevent us from downing bosses.

I'm not sure what your idea of "insane numbers" is but just for some perspective I did nearly double his damage this week on both Garalon and Wind lord, so either the nerf hit fire REALLY HARD, or this is a bad example to look at for fire dps.

I'm not sure If I am the really the best one (i consider myself an average skilled mage) to look at for numbers either but if you guys would like I can post logs of prenerf and post nerf as fire for comparison sake.

Pre-Nerf: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...rd/?enc=bosses

Post Nerf: Coming Tuesday

[Xarganthos]

I did elegon in LFR for shits and giggles. Take from it what you will.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h...6&e=6615#Zavri

how much did you move?^^ in lfr you dont have to reset your stacks so you can concentrate more on dpsing

[Deleted]

I tried Frost for the first time in my normal raid yesterday and .. I sucked. Bad. I got about 6k Haste rating (~2k Mastery and Crit each, my gear is only 485) so I think that should be ok, given that I was doing fine as Fire before with only about 3k crit rating max.
But I was consistently last place. I don't think I missed anything, used the procced Ice Lances, kept Bomb up to procc Brain Freeze, used my Elemental's Freeze to procc Fingers of Frost. Went with Invocation, switched between Sorch and Presence of Mind.
Granted, we did three, four fights yesterday we hadn't done/finished yet, Grand Empress, Protectors, Tsu'Long and Lei Shi, but with Fire I was top 1-3 dps, now I'm dead place last. And I don't see how I could go back to Fire, even with reforges I barely break 24, 25% self-buffed, it's a small miracle I did as well as I did before the buff and the nerf...

Here's the damage done for our raid yesterday, any ideas? I'm Panador of course, only mage http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...ses&boss=62442

Gonna try Arcane a bit more today, only tried that once yesterday and equally sucked. Also gotta try how I do with Fire with this abysmal crit rating...

[Magemaer]

So hear this. I just did a 5 minute near-perfect play test on the single target dummy for 5 minutes with all CDs used in only normal mage buffs and here is what I got at ilevel 495.

Fire: 75k dps at 5 minutes
Frost: 79k dps at 5 minutes
Arcane 89k dps at 5 minutes

You guys decide.

I have tested arcane this week. It is the superior single target spec without a doubt now.

[Deleted]

I have tested arcane yesterday as well and it does seem very superior in single target to the other 2 specs, but once it comes to movement or AoE I predict that frost will be better and take over.