Should father have any say about abortion?

[Trunksee]

A little real life scenario that i think pertains here.

I was in high school dating a girl, we used protection both condoms and birth control for her. I had a condom break and she got knocked up. I wanted an abortion and she didnt. Come to find out she had stopped taking her pills because she wanted to lose some weight. I didnt know until she was pregnant. I had no right to do anything. I lawyered up and he told me i was screwed because the laws are in a way that i have no rights until the child is born. We couldnt even set a court date until after the child was born. She decided then to go to court with no lawyer and was awarded child support, daycare and back medical bills without me even fetting a word in.

So a year goes by of her not letting me see the child but still begging for money on something i didnt want 18 years of never mind 9 months of pregnancy. She starts to lose in court so she takes off. Im now in $8000 worth of debt to my lawyer with no money left so i give up and just pay my support.

Eight years go by and the state decides to do a random check up. We go back to coirt and i ask for a continuance to obtain a lawyer. They dont consider it double my child support based on my pay to 150 a week and order me to pay half of after school activities. I lawyer up and after 6 months of continuances by her i win to get her locked up if she doesnt allow for visitations.

At this point she paniced and asked me to surrender my rights which I do under the condition i am not to be contacted.

Long story short i had no right to do anything but pay until she decided to let me go.

No man should be forcing abortion on a woman, but in turn no woman should force 18 years of parenting and support on a man. Major double standard here.

---------- Post added 2012-12-05 at 08:53 AM ----------

Someone please explain how this is a fair system.

[Raelbo]

To begin with, I did outline a scenario where the woman could possibly abuse the guidelines I set up.

Yes, you outlined a lot of possibilities of how both men and women could abuse the guidelines, and assumed that somehow they would balance it all out. The problem with that approach is that Woman A abusing the situation to screw over Man B does not make it right for Man D to screw over Woman C.

I do admit though that men in general would have less of an incentive to be responsible.

Let's be quite clear about this one: Some men are responsible and their sensibilities are incentive enough. Some men are dogs (I am a man btw) and they feel nothing about ruining a woman's life for a quick bit of pleasure. It is these guys for whom laws are needed to keep them in check.

However, that trump card that women have when deciding whether or not to have an abortion cuts both ways. If the woman maintains the most responsibility in the fate of the pregnancy, then I see nothing wrong with her having the larger incentive to chose her sexual partners more carefully.

As someone already put it, pregnancy is NOT an equal situation. While the act of getting pregnant is shared 50/50 by both partners, the act of being pregnant and giving birth is 100% the woman's problem. The "trump card" as you put it, is hardly a trump card. It is a small saving grace in what is usually a lose/lose situation for the woman (assuming an unplanned pregnancy with a man with whom she is not in a stable, committed relationship).

I mean, seriously, in what way do you think having either an abortion or going through with an unplanned pregnancy without a partner is in any way a "nice" thing for any woman? If anything it is about choosing the lesser of 2 pretty undesirable choices.

Even if you force every father to pay child maintenance, women will always have the larger incentive to chose her sexual partners more carefully simply because they are so much more invested in the pregnancy process whichever way you cut it, while men will always have less to lose by being duplicitous.

The fact that one man may want an unwilling woman to serve as an incubator for his spawn hardly equates with another man with no interest in a baby being allowed to wash his hands of the matter while that woman has to choose between terminating a pregnancy, or having to raise a child with no assistance.

If you want to set up such guidelines, these things need to be agreed upon before the intercourse that results in pregnancy, and we all know that is never going to fly. So the best society can do is set up guidelines upfront for what happens by default when something like this happens and there is no pre-existing agreement.

If you could force a man to be a great father, then maybe there would be some parity, but as things stand, women are always going to be the worse off, and advocating that men can just wash their hands of it is IMO just appalling (this coming from a father btw).

[Trunksee]

I see all this agree before hand crap. What happens when protection fails even rare it still does. I was on the hook for 10 years of child support, medical bills and daycare in my state. Is it fair that she decided to keep it knowing she had me over a barrel? Look unless you experience the sexual discrimination of the way the current system works you wont understand. I did my part, i payed i fought and paid a lawyer but i still paid over 50k in bills in the end. How is that fair?

[Raelbo]

A little real life scenario that i think pertains here.<snip>

Long story short i had no right to do anything but pay until she decided to let me go.

No man should be forcing abortion on a woman, but in turn no woman should force 18 years of parenting and support on a man. Major double standard here. Someone please explain how this is a fair system.

It clearly is not a fair system. Not because you were forced to pay child support, but because you were denied access to see your child.

It is a subtle, but very important distinction.


In the end it seems like justice did finally prevail though - she won't allow you visitation, she doesn't get to have financial support.

[Likilop]

Nobody should force a woman to get an abortion or carry a child to term.

I got pregnant in my early twenties and my boyfriend at the time, as well as his family, pressured me into getting an abortion. I did not want one at all however I was faced with threats that went from one extreme where my boyfriend would leave me and have nothing to do with the child or support me in any way, to threatening to prove I was an unfit mother and never let me see the child. This was coupled with promises that if I aborted it in a few years we could get married and then have a child then. It was a lot of pressure so despite the fact I didn't want to, I went through with it

It was a horrible procedure and I wouldn't want to force anyone to get one. The feeling of emptiness I woke up to afterwards is one I will never forget. And the worst part was the abortion didn't go exactly as planned and left me with the inability to have children

I can never have children because my ex pressured me into having an abortion.

He can still have kids fine.

I can't. I will never be able to. I have been heartbroken for years.


It should be the women's choice.


Boys listen up. If you have sex then pregnancy is always a chance. Be careful before you have sex. There's head, anal, anything else. But it's your responsibility too so be careful about it

Don't have sex with anyone you're not prepared to have a child with.

[Chibun]

I can never have children because my ex pressured me into having an abortion.

While it was wrong for him to do that, you still had a choice. No one put a gun to your head and made you do it. It was ultimately your choice.

[Likilop]

While it was wrong for him to do that, you still had a choice. No one put a gun to your head and made you do it. It was ultimately your choice.

I know that. But this thread talks about giving the man a decision about whether the child can be aborted. (or forced to be kept). So it is 100% relevant to the topic.

[Raelbo]

I see all this agree before hand crap. What happens when protection fails even rare it still does. I was on the hook for 10 years of child support, medical bills and daycare in my state. Is it fair that she decided to keep it knowing she had me over a barrel? Look unless you experience the sexual discrimination of the way the current system works you wont understand. I did my part, i payed i fought and paid a lawyer but i still paid over 50k in bills in the end. How is that fair?

Life isn't always fair.

The fact is that you took a risk by having sex. It backfired, she got pregnant. There is no fair outcome, only a crappy consequence, whichever way you cut it.

Sorry, but you have to own up to responsibility for that.

Expecting her to go through with an abortion because of a mess up you two made together is not fair.
Expecting her to shoulder the financial burden of a child alone, because you two decided to sleep together is not fair.

I guess most people don't see it that way, but every time you have sex, there is a risk of incurring a $50K bill. If you don't like it, don't have sex, or make damned sure that the woman sees eye to eye with you on the issue and that you have a signed document to prove it.

[Purlina]

Before every occurrence of sex, the man and woman should sign a binding contract that agrees on what will happen should the women become pregnant.

If no contract is signed the women gets to decide. Enjoy!



Probable outcome?

Woman tells you to fuck off, no sex is had, and no one get pregnant. Everybody wins!

[Raelbo]

Boys listen up...Don't have sex with anyone you're not prepared to have a child with.

This a million times over.

[skrump]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...3#post19333533

Read my post.

If I ever would want to have a child I'd want him/her to have a father that is actually there aswell and loves the child as much as I would. Someone just paying some money for child support just because he's bound to by law can't really substitute for a father that is there.

That is True but millions of women just like you don't look at it the same way you do, they see a man as little more than a Cash machine with a penis and a child is a way for them to keep extracting cash from one penis while playing with another.

Not saying all single mothers think that way but the number of women who do is growing at a rather shocking rate, hell just from what I have personally witnessed I would guestimate 1 in 10 women I know abuse the system in such a way that they are now financially secure with 3+ children from different fathers all coughing up child support, not to mention all the other government assistance they receive such as welfare/wic and free medical treatment.
(almost envious as most of them are more financially secure than me who has a full time job)

[traen]

So, so much wrong in this threat... I get downright angry when I see shit like this:




If man doesn't want baby, there is a very simple solution: keep your fcking dick to yourself! Seriously, Detheaven and Dex, the rest of the world stopped thinking like this in the last century. Back then there were no child support and women that got pregnant was screwed. That's the reason forced child support was invented in the first place. Please, educate yourself on history, grow a spine and take responsibility for your sex life!

We are not animals. We are not crazy Christians of the middle ages. We have sex for pleasure and fun. An average human has sex several thousand times in his life. And he does it for breeding just once or twice.

Even if a man did everything right, like using condom or not having vaginal sex, there is still a chance for a girl to get pregnant. She can put the content of the used condom into her vagina. Even after oral or anal sex, she still have ways to make herself pregnant. Without man's approval.
Is it fair?
Considering that this man does not love this girl, does not want the child and maybe even sees her for the first (and supposedly last) time in his life.
Maybe this girl is a hooker who decided to blackmail someone?

As you can see, everything is much more complicated than it seems for some people.

So yes, the girl should ask a man before deciding to keep the child. And if she decides to keep the child against his will, there should be some serious punishment for doing this. Maybe not leaving the girl without financial support of the father, but at least cutting it into half (if he wants to, obviously).

In the same time, if the man wants the child and the girl does not, it is entirely her decision to keep it or not and she should be able to do an abortion in any cases.
Because you know... 30 seconds of sex comparing to 9 month of pregnancy is definitely not the same.
It could be different if they have official relationship, like marriage.

[Deleted]

Well yes and no.
I would never force a girl to carry a child she doesn't want,
However if i'm told she's on the pill and then somehow she gets pregnant and decided to keep it, and I feel like there's no way in hell that I want a child, I'd like to cut any and all bonds to that child and would like to have nothing to do with it, however there isn't that option, I still have to pay childsupport and whatever.
That in my opinion is fucked up, a man can't force a woman to screw her life over, Sure that's how it's supposed to be.
A woman can screw the life over for a man however, yeah fuck it let's go!

[Bowjobs]

No they shouldn't. It's the woman that has to carry the baby to term, not the man. No man should be able to force a woman to carry a baby to term or have a fetus killed because they don't want to be a father.

inb4 'well women can force men to be a father'

Maybe you should try sleeping with women that are on some form of birth control and have the same views on having children as you do. Also, learn what a condom is, get a vasectomy or don't have sex all together if you're that paranoid.

Then she shouldn't have opened her fucking legs, or idk maybe she should get on some kind of birth control considering in almost all states welfare will pay for it for free. Vasetomys and condoms are not.

[Likilop]

Don't stop wearing a condom just because the girl is on (or says she's on) the pill.

[Purlina]

We are not animals. We are not crazy Christians of the middle ages. We have sex for pleasure and fun. An average human has sex several thousand times in his life. And he does it for breeding just once or twice.

Even if a man did everything right, like using condom or not having vaginal sex, there is still a chance for a girl to get pregnant. She can put the content of the used condom into her vagina. Even after oral or anal sex, she still have ways to make herself pregnant. Without man's approval.
Is it fair?
Considering that this man does not love this girl, does not want the child and maybe even sees her for the first (and supposedly last) time in his life.
Maybe this girl is a hooker who decided to blackmail someone?

As you can see, everything is much more complicated than it seems for some people.

So yes, the girl should ask a man before deciding to keep the child. And if she decides to keep the child against his will, there should be some serious punishment for doing this. Maybe not leaving the girl without financial support of the father, but at least cutting it into half (if he wants to, obviously).

In the same time, if the man wants the child and the girl does not, it is entirely her decision to keep it or not and she should be able to do an abortion in any cases.
Because you know... 30 seconds of sex comparing to 9 month of pregnancy is definitely not the same.
It could be different if they have official relationship, like marriage.

Sign a contract before having sex.

[Trunksee]

I agree completely that it can happen but both parties are involved not one. And no abortion can be a horrible thingso no woman should never ever be forced to have one. I am merely trying to point out the fact of the double standard where woman determin a mans fate yet she controls her own. Because abortion is still seen as a issue of a womans body vs a lifetime of commitment theres an issue. The point is woman have the OPTION where men dont on a life altering decsion.

It was understood by using protection we didnt want to get pregnant pr at least i didnt, yet an accodent happened where she had 100%control over and i had none.

If all children were given to the father and the woman had to support the father you would be singing another tune. The fact is the woman always gets to keep the child and get support no matter what unless she endangers the pregnancy. Then do you have any idea how hard it is for a man no matter how good of a father they are to get an infants custody?

Men have no rights and until you live through it you have no right to comment. And to the woman who had one you have my condolances for what happened. If he didnt want it though but you did why not plan to have his rights dropped if you wanted to keep it. What would have been unfair about that?

[Purlina]

It was understood by using protection we didnt want to get pregnant pr at least i didnt, yet an accodent happened where she had 100%control over and i had none.

Condoms aren't just to prevent pregnancies...

Come to an actual agreement, before having sex.

[Damien36]

He did have a say in the abortion, it's called a condom. Not smart enough to wear one, not smart enough to tell the woman to get an abortion. Simple.

[Deleted]

Men should have the right to sign off any commitments to a baby before it is born.
Women should have the choice of abortion whether or not the man likes it. They are the ones creating the baby, all men do is fertilise an egg.

I'm a man.