Should father have any say about abortion?

[semaphore]

Nor am I campaigning for equal rights, infact, I'm quite against equal rights because men and woman are not equal. Feminists onyl want equality when it suits them, yet demand special treatment when it doesn't.

Yes the right to control your own body is "special treatment", because men totally has to seek women's permission before getting medical procedures, right? We want equal rights under equal circumstances. Pregnancy is not equal on men and women.

Bit of a long winded response I know, but it's something that gets on my nerves here. Staying at home, on the benefit, pumping out kids pays off, especially if you're an "unskilled" worker shall we say. The girl I mentioned above, was earning six figures (2K + per week) from the combination of child support of benefits.

Yes and again, it takes time and effort to take care of these kids they are "pumping out". Now I totally support removing children from terrible parents. But otherwise, this talk still strikes me as someone who still dismisses the effort going into taking care of children.

[skrump]

Personally, I think that the father should have a say in if they keep the kid or not, but if they choose not to, then HOW they get this done should be up to the mother. It is her body after all and as such, she gets to decide if she wants an abortion or to carry the baby to term and put it up for adoption.

It's as simple as giving the father the option to wave all rights/responsibility for the child if the women should choose to keep it.
Nothing more than a simple legal document that is signed before the actual birth of the child.

[Vanyali]

Really, because as a full grown adult I spend less than $200 a month on food and less than $300 a year on clothing which still equates to less than 3k a year.

I fully understand it takes more to raise a infant due to diapers and other crap that must be provided for a baby but hey shouldn't your financial contribution to the child be equal to mine.

childcare (very expensive if it's a daycare)
doctor visits (yes, your child support CAN be applied toward this and counted). Kids have a lot of doctor visits, especially for vaccinations and such.
school. school supplies need to be re-purchased yearly and are somewhat expensive.
toys. no, not spoiling them senseless, not buying the $500 toys. just something for them to have.
furniture. kids kinda need a bed. dressers are nice too. and a crib, starting out. and a changing table. diaper genies are almost necessary (hell, scratch the almost if you're a single parent). playpens.
"training" supplies - potty training, walkers, bouncers.
traveling supplies - carseats. strollers.

none of this is cheap, a lot has to be upgraded fairly often.

[semaphore]

You are not pointing out that my analogy is "critically flawed". Since your reaction to analogies is not unlike that of a rabid dog

Physical assault is illegal.

Since you are utterly unable to make a half decent analogy, you should probably not make one instead of going rabid when it gets pointed out to you.

You have said over and over that getting an abortion is "the responsible thing to do" and that it is "best for everyone". Well, what if the mother doesn't want an abortion? If she wants to keep the fetus, to let it grow into a baby, would the "responsible thing to do" be forcing her to get an abortion against her will?

Strawmaning. I'm talking about unwanted pregnancies, in the context of people like you complaining that women aren't taking responsibility for their pregnancies.

[Dakara]

Personally I think the only option a man needs in this instance is the ability to say he doesn't want the child, otherwise it should be 100% upto the woman. Therefor if the woman is raped the rapist(since in most instances I presume the rapist doesn't want a child and if for some reason he does then it falls to the woman to make the decision by the very definition of the only option I've given) has no control anyway and from any other perspective it's completely the woman's prerogative.

This way the man still gets a say if he doesn't want a child and from every other possible avenue the woman has complete control.

I think it's important to mention that I'm a man so I guess some issues that women face when making this choice will be beyond me at this time since I haven't put a large amount of thought into it.

Well you need to be careful as well in over protecting the man. If all it takes to avoid paying child support is to say "I don't want it". Then there's going to be a lot of struggling solo mums out there. Remember, abortion isn't necessarily an option for everyone, as not everyone believes in it.

It comes back to what I've been saying that there is no one answer to every situation. A women shouldn't be able to have abortions every other week as a means of birth control, nor should a man be able to to completely remove himself from all responsibility.

In any case where a couple (or just 2 people who did it) are considering a termination, or are simply unsure what to do, they should be provided with counseling and professional help to make the right decision. And from that, a decision is made as to each parties obligations. At the end of the day, it should still be the women's decision to abort or not (it is her body after all), but at least she gets some support to help her make that decision, and the father also gets support to prevent him getting hung out to dry.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Here's a dilemma for you.
If a woman rapes a man and gets pregnant, can the man demand an abortion?
If not will the man be forced to give money to the woman to take care of the child?

In some countries the woman has all the rights even if she raped the father, the father also has to pay for child support.

Kinda makes me feel sick of how far this whole "abortion / womens rights / mens rights / etc"


I voted "No" as to "the father has a say on abortion" and well... why does the women have any say if she agreed on having sex in the first place? Rape sure, then that's something I totally understand (I'm not against abortion, I think it's a shame in most cases etc...) the abortion, same if it's in danger of killing the mother. But having an abortion because you can't have a baby for economical reasons / live style / life plans / relationship / work and so on... well why the fuck didn't you NOT have sex in the first place? There's also a shit ton of different preventions, beyond the condoms and pills... some women get a rod inserted in their arm that feeds the body with hormones that stops the eggs from releasing. There's no reason except medical or rape to get an abortion in my opinion, "you do the crime you do the time".

[semaphore]

Really, because as a full grown adult I spend less than $200 a month on food and less than $300 a year on clothing which still equates to less than 3k a year.

Yeah because full grown adults are still growing and need cloths.

Random tool because I can't find the Federal Government's figures just now: http://www.babycenter.com/cost-of-ra...ild-calculator
Cost of raising a baby from birth to 18, without college, as a single parent with income under $60k, a city: $157,410. That's $8,745 a year. Which is $728.75 a month.

Average child support payment is around $300 a month.

[v2prwsmb45yhuq3wj23vpjk]

You are not pointing out that my analogy is "critically flawed". You are attacking me and insulting me, which is just pathetic and despicable. You can't even grasp the concept of civil discussion.

Since your reaction to analogies is not unlike that of a rabid dog, I will simply ask you this: You have said over and over that getting an abortion is "the responsible thing to do" and that it is "best for everyone". Well, what if the mother doesn't want an abortion? If she wants to keep the fetus, to let it grow into a baby, would the "responsible thing to do" be forcing her to get an abortion against her will? I certainly don't think so, in fact I find the idea repulsive. You see, to a parent who wants to keep the fetus, it is more than just a fetus. It is their future child. And the idea that someone, anyone, would have no right to stop someone who wanted to kill their future child is just awful.

For one, you're the one making attacks.

Secondly, nobody ever said that forcing an abortion is responsible. If the mother wants to keep it and care for it, that is also being responsible. The awful thing about a forced abortion isn't the abortion itself, it's the forced part.

Here's a dilemma for you.
If a woman rapes a man and gets pregnant, can the man demand an abortion?
If not will the man be forced to give money to the woman to take care of the child?

In some countries the woman has all the rights even if she raped the father, the father also has to pay for child support.

Kinda makes me feel sick of how far this whole "abortion / womens rights / mens rights / etc"


I voted "No" as to "the father has a say on abortion" and well... why does the women have any say if she agreed on having sex in the first place? Rape sure, then that's something I totally understand (I'm not against abortion, I think it's a shame in most cases etc...) the abortion, same if it's in danger of killing the mother. But having an abortion because you can't have a baby for economical reasons / live style / life plans / relationship / work and so on... well why the fuck didn't you NOT have sex in the first place? There's also a shit ton of different preventions, beyond the condoms and pills... some women get a rod inserted in their arm that feeds the body with hormones that stops the eggs from releasing. There's no reason except medical or rape to get an abortion in my opinion, "you do the crime you do the time".

Anybody being forced to pay money to their rapist like that is wrong. Forcing an abortion on the woman probably isn't necessary anyway as she'd likely abort once she found out she was going to jail. If not, the man should never have to have anything to do with it.

I also find the mentality that you should pay for your mistakes rather than try to fix them rather childish.

[drukai]

It's guys fault they were having unprotected sex?! Or for example if woman forgot to take her pills, it's mans fault?
And why is it so hard to treat father in this case like he's being treated during the divorce process? All things equal mother will usually get the children but the father will have alot of rights aswell. Imagine mother not wanting the child after divorce but she doesn't want the father to have it either so she gives it to some orphnage just because she can. That's the kind of right women have with abortions atm.

So I hear that condoms and birth control are 100% effective.

[Deleted]

I will answer yours if you answer mine :

Should wife have any say in husbands vasectomy?

[Vuljatar]

Maybe if you can't manage to make a decent analogy you should just not make them.

While I can't say this contributes anything to the discussion, I appreciate you not launching onto a tangent about how I obviously want to savagely beat and/or poison women.

Since you are utterly unable to make a half decent analogy, you should probably not make one instead of going rabid when it gets pointed out to you.

Again, if personal attacks and insults are your idea of "pointing something out", you probably shouldn't be part of any discussion.

Strawmaning. I'm talking about unwanted pregnancies, in the context of people like you complaining that women aren't taking responsibility for their pregnancies.

Yeah, why don't you read the rest of my post and give it some thought. When a woman aborts a fetus against the father's will, to him she is killing his unborn son or daughter. That should NOT be okay, any more than forcing a woman to get an abortion against her will should be.

[Cephilia]

In ideal situation, man and woman can come in to agreement. But if that's not possible for some reason, I do believe woman has the final say. After all, it's her body and her life we're talking about. You can't force someone to go through pregnancy, controlling diet, quitting smoking/alcohol, exercising and going through the painful process of giving birth because someone else wants a baby. Is it unfair? Well, yes. But which is worse? I believe in freedom of choice, and forcing someone to go through pregnancy is not humane treatment to me. Women aren't just breeding things that pop out babies and kill them out of irresponsibility, pregnancy is a nine month progress and being forced to go through that would leave severe mental scarring. We don't force men to go through nine month strict control over their lives and leave them body permanently changed because woman wants something.

[Vanyali]

Yeah, why don't you read the rest of my post and give it some thought. When a woman aborts a fetus against the father's will, to him she is killing his unborn son or daughter. That should NOT be okay, any more than forcing a woman to get an abortion against her will should be.

Forcing a person that is alive and independent for the sake of something that is entirely dependent is NOT okay. You sacrifice the well-being (mental and physical) of a living human being that's in front of you for a fetus that's nothing more than a clump of rapidly cloning cells when your part finishes... not even a fetus at that point, but a collection of cells with fetus potential. But that utterly dependent, unborn cell has more rights than the person outside of it because it's "your" son/ daughter?

[semaphore]

Again, if personal attacks and insults are your idea of "pointing something out", you probably shouldn't be part of any discussion.

Funny how you skipped over the part where I pointed out your failed analogies involve illegal attacks, and instead tries to act superior over me using the exact same insult you first attacked me with.

Yeah, why don't you read the rest of my post and give it some thought. When a woman aborts a fetus against the father's will, to him she is killing his unborn son or daughter.

Except abortion is not killing a child. That you adopt whatever quasi-religious views that says it is, does not impose an obligation on anyone else to consider it from your perspective.

[v2prwsmb45yhuq3wj23vpjk]

Again, if personal attacks and insults are your idea of "pointing something out", you probably shouldn't be part of any discussion.

Stop crying about personal attacks when you're making them. Maybe Semaphore has also used a few, but you can't cry when somebody calls you stupid when you called them stupid.

Yeah, why don't you read the rest of my post and give it some thought. When a woman aborts a fetus against the father's will, to him she is killing his unborn son or daughter. That should NOT be okay, any more than forcing a woman to get an abortion against her will should be.

Being irrational doesn't make your argument. Once again, the situation will never be fair. You are advocating making it more unfair for the woman than it is for the man.

[Deleted]

So you're not talking about abortion, you just think it's not taking responsibility. I read your post, did you read mine? My point is that having an abortion is a responsible course of action that works out the best for everyone in an unintended pregnancy.

The section you quoted in your previous post had nothing to do with an unintended pregnancy or the best interest of both parties.
I'll quote myself to refresh your memory.

If you want to keep the child and the man doesn't, he still has to suffer the consequences.

That means the woman wants the child while the man did not consent it or want to be part of it. Yet, he is forced to by law.
And full responsibility is shoved onto the man because "If you don't want kids, don't have sex with me".

Yes yes typical anti-feminist rants. How about you actually give some examples of real feminists trying to do that? Last I checked none of us were campaigning for men be forced to stay at home to be househusbands.

http://antipornfeminists.wordpress.c...h-pornography/
Somehow it's degrading to women to be put in the light they are in pornographic movies/pictures, yet it's not degrading to men because " male sexuality is predicated on cruelty, coercion and degradation", so those men are right where they belong.

Do I need to start pointing out the flaws in this very famous and active feminist?
She is biased by the vagina between her legs and so are most feminists.

The picture of an independent women that can stand on her own two legs aren't what feminists today stand for.
They want more rights than men because we've treated them badly in the past .
But that's all there is, vengeance. Do you believe that all Germans are Nazis and Jew haters as well?
I'm not gonna go further into feminism than this, I don't want this thread to derail.

[Dakara]

Yes the right to control your own body is "special treatment", because men totally has to seek women's permission before getting medical procedures, right? We want equal rights under equal circumstances. Pregnancy is not equal on men and women.

I keep agreeing with you, and you keep trying to argue with me... why?!

My statement about special treatment was a broad one relating to feminism in general, which was quite clear in my post. I even stated my feelings towards a woman's right to choose vs the fathers rights as a mere genetic donor. Why are you only half quoting me and hitting back with sarcasm and snide remarks? Do you just want to argue for the sake of arguing?

Yes and again, it takes time and effort to take care of these kids they are "pumping out". Now I totally support removing children from terrible parents. But otherwise, this talk still strikes me as someone who still dismisses the effort going into taking care of children.

But these Woman don't take care of their children! That's the point. They pump out kids to get a bigger paycheck, that's it. Then when the kid turns 15 or 16 (I forget the minimum age) they pull them out of school so they can claim the unemployment benefit!

You make it sounds like I'm referring to good and loving parents. But I'm not. I'm talking about neglectful, abusive, and irresponsible parents who only see their kids as a meal ticket. You might find that hard to believe, or still choose to believe that I (a loving husband and father) have no concept of raising children, but the fact is, these people exist.

[v2prwsmb45yhuq3wj23vpjk]

She is biased by the vagina between her legs and so are most feminists.

Do you believe that all Germans are Nazis and Jew haters as well?

Cognitive dissonance at its finest.

[iggie]

Aborting women: exercising her rights, empowered
Man wanting woman to abort: deadbeat loser

The main difference is if the woman wants to keep the baby the man's on the hook for 18 years of child support.

[Vanyali]

Aborting women: exercising her rights, empowered
Man wanting woman to abort: deadbeat loser

The main difference is if the woman wants to keep the baby the man's on the hook for 18 years of child support.

should read:

man wanting woman to abort: fine
man FORCING woman to abort OR keep: not fine

you know. to keep with what's actually being said.