Second wind needs changing. Now.

[Pascal]

Does it matter? PvP matters as much as pet battles.

Shut up, pet battles are super important.

[kosechi]

I think 25% defensive stance is fine. It is a god damm Warrior.

i'm wearing plate armor too. can i have 25% damage reduction for sitting in righteous fury?
do you see how stupid that sounds?

dps specs shouldn't be able to access the full power of their tank stances, and for the most part they can't.

[Linneth]

The problem isn't Second Wind alone, it's Second Wind + high passive & active damage reductions + ccs/stuns, all of it for free (no need to sacrifice big amounts of damage). This means that if you're melee he'll end up wrecking you because he shockwaves you every 25 seconds, healing up a big amount of health while you can't do anything. Add Heroic Leap and other things and you have a completely broken situation 1vs1, which while the game isn't balanced around, it's a situation that can come up on high rated arenas when both teams only have one player alive; those situations shouldn't be won by silly mechanics.

[Polarthief]

GC finally admitted Second Wind was too strong. He was warned in Beta, but as usual, he pulled the "our testing does not show this" card. which is code for "I'm the lead dev and I know what's best for the game"

Seeing as how he claimed Mages "wouldn't evocate with the change" (when there was a proposed change to make Invocation procc from 100% mana as well as after completing an Evocate), I completely agree on that. GC does what he wants sometimes just because he THINKS it's what best, when really he doesn't have a fucking clue at all. The knee-jerk nerfs to the Mage class that didn't even address the problems without breaking even more things are a clear testament to that.

---------- Post added 2012-12-13 at 12:58 AM ----------

The problem isn't Second Wind alone, it's Second Wind + high passive & active damage reductions + ccs/stuns, all of it for free (no need to sacrifice big amounts of damage). This means that if you're melee he'll end up wrecking you because he shockwaves you every 25 seconds, healing up a big amount of health while you can't do anything. Add Heroic Leap and other things and you have a completely broken situation 1vs1, which while the game isn't balanced around, it's a situation that can come up on high rated arenas when both teams only have one player alive; those situations shouldn't be won by silly mechanics.

I disagree with the 1v1 parts, but the fact that this strategy works against groups of players (e.g., shockwave followed by a fear bomb shout) is another aspect that's broken. I don't get why one class can be so powerful outside of 1v1 conditions.

Mages were superb at 1v1 PvP, but weren't that great elsewhere when dispels and silences are available.

[Synche]

Anyone who thinks second wind is OP needs to learn to play. End of story.

11k per second is nothing, and now minus 30% due to the healing debuff, if you can't out dps that then I have no idea what the hell any other player is doing.

25% Dmg reduction in D. Stance, it is for when you are playing DEFENSIVE, only few stay in D stance the whole time, and those that do gut their rage generation.

DBTS ? It is another DEFENSIVE COOLDOWN, guess what? Stun the warrior and it does nothing, or count down 8 seconds when you see a warrior pop it while popping your own Defensive cooldowns if need be to survive.

Shield Wall ? Disarm the warrior, they will lose their shield wall buff.

God I hate it when people think they should be able to burn through every other class, god forbid people need to actually learn to fight against certain other classes.

[Nyaldee]

Mages were superb at 1v1 PvP, but weren't that great elsewhere when dispels and silences are available.

Just so you know and try yourself - cced healers don't dispell and ppls in deep can't silence you. Seriously stop with the dumb shit, competent mages were storming every BG ladder. They needed nerf and they got it, i only hope that it'll be enough.

OT: 2d wind is obviously too strong, especially taking into consideration active defences in form of strong cds, mobility, stuns, fear and spell reflect. Rogues have their % heal too, but now it's a choice if it's worth to spend energy/cp on it or not + you can preassure rogue whille good warrior with charge between his healer and you, leap into LoS from heavy bursts, reflect CCs on healer in cruicial moments and do tons of other annoying stuff making himself the worst target to train.

[HatredAU]

Just don't stand in it

[Exeris]

Second Wind is fine. The game is balanced around 3v3. If you have 2 DPS that can't kill through it, you're doing something wrong.

Also - Feral most OP class now after hotfix so shat ittt

3vs3 and battle grounds have main priority when it comes to balance, that is all.

They don't ignore 5vs5, 2vs2 and 1vs1, they just have a lower priority.

[kosechi]

Anyone who thinks second wind is OP needs to learn to play. End of story.

11k per second is nothing, and now minus 30% due to the healing debuff, if you can't out dps that then I have no idea what the hell any other player is doing.

25% Dmg reduction in D. Stance, it is for when you are playing DEFENSIVE, only few stay in D stance the whole time, and those that do gut their rage generation.

DBTS ? It is another DEFENSIVE COOLDOWN, guess what? Stun the warrior and it does nothing, or count down 8 seconds when you see a warrior pop it while popping your own Defensive cooldowns if need be to survive.

Shield Wall ? Disarm the warrior, they will lose their shield wall buff.

God I hate it when people think they should be able to burn through every other class, god forbid people need to actually learn to fight against certain other classes.

find me a high rated warrior who doesn't spend the ENTIRE match sitting in def stance. i dare you.

not every comp has a disarm, and warriors have a LOT of defensive cds, far more then any of the other melee, thats on top of D stance and second wind and can't be locked out of their defensives as easily as rets and dks, have better self peels....

see what i'm trying to get at? the kind of passive damage reduction warriors have just isn't balanced, particularly when you compare to to the tools available to other melee.

i'm also fairly sure the healing debuff doesn't effect heals like second wind and recoup, but i could be wrong about that.

[Strah]

Assuming a healing debuff and the new -30% healing thing it would tick for ~6.2k a second, which is negligible when 2 dps classes with cooldowns popped are bashing on you. Hell, it's neglible even with one person dpsing you.
Yeah, 2 dps, because "pvp is based around 3's"
Yeah, with cooldowns popped, because "welcome to season 12 pvp"

[Vojka]

I am just more concerned about the fact that warriors have a healing tier for talents to begin with.

its a warrior, for a long time warriors always had really shitty self healing, we had little talents that were good, they didnt heal for alot at all, but thats because we are a warrior, our healing is supposed to be really shitty, its what we are supposed to lack. If you ask me we should just get our old blood craze and second wind back as baseline passives, thats all we really needed for healing, we are supposed to depend on healers to be kept alive.

Thats how I feel about my warriors self healing anyway, it should feel weak.

[Charge me Doctor]

The healing received from Second Wind is just too much. I mean seriously, 11k ticks PER SECOND? That means I have to do above 11k sustained DPS to bring a Warrior down. That is also through multiple defensives, a HEALER that heals him, him equipping a shield and getting a tonfuck of more physical damage reduction, and of course basic stuff like line of sighting which, if properly done, reduces damage taken by up to 100%.

The healing is too strong. I'm not saying nerf it per se, but at least fix it. It shouldn't be too hard, right?

For example, just reduce the healing done to 2%. Also make it get hit by the 30% healing reduction in PvP (just like every other class has to suffer from it). To balance it out, make it so that it heals when the Warrior is below 75% instead. You'll still get a steady 5k per second heal, but it won't be so broken that certain classes can't kill you whatsoever unless they line up their offensive cooldowns altogether.

I'm a Feral player myself. I've seen enough Warriors live through my sustained damage (rape, rip and shreds).

Oh, and just to defend myself here: Nerf the %heal of leader of the pack while you're at it. Slap the PvP healing reduction on it, and increase the ICD by 2 or 3 seconds. Currently, Leader of the Pack heals me for, roughly, 0,66% max health per second. Reducing it a little is still okay for sustained healing, but just less damn bursty.

Keep Recuperate as it is. Rogues are in a bad spot. Though they can perform well if played correctly, Recuperate is mandatory for a Rogue's survivability for a few seasons now. As much as it heals, it definitely doesn't make Rogues overpowered. Plus, it costs combo points.

/Rant off

You are wrong. They already nerfed it to 2.1% due to healing debuff. Add there a 20% reduction and you will get 1.68% per second. Asuming that warrior has 400k health, you will get 6.7 HPS. Even without these changes, 3% redused by 20% will give a warrior 2.4% per second (9.6k per second). And it works only under 35% health (140k), anyone can manage to burst warrior with such low health, he will heal for 10k every second, giving you enough time to kill him (mine warrior deals ~10k flat dps with only white hits on plate).
I see the rage gain part of this tallent much stronger than heal

[yuca247]

I don't think so.

Second wind is the only decent healing option warriors have on that talent tier. The other two are laughable specially with all the burst from several classes even through high resilience.

I don't see why anyone would nerf second wind when you have dps pallys, druids, shamans, etc throwing constant 60k - 80k heals on themselves and teammates.

[semetrik22]

how hard is it to do 11k dps? most dots hit 10k

[Marahdeka]

I'm a Feral player myself. I've seen enough Warriors live through my sustained damage (rape, rip and shreds).

Sustained dmg? aren't you supposed to counter second wind with burst damage?

[Fiddlesnarf]

When a pure dps class can out self-heal himself better than me while losing no damage... well its kinda bullshit. With the multiple nerfs to hybrid healing, I can heal myself for about 35-40k every 3 Holy Power, that is about 1/8 my total health, and I am losing most of my damage output in the meantime.

[Jawless Jones]

When I play resto shaman and I can't even kill a warrior that is AFK even GC has to admit that it's not a good mechanic.

YOU ARE A HEALER

you shouldnt be soloing ANYTHING even if it is afk

you shouldnt even be dpsing in ANY pvp environment... you're a fucking healer not a dps...

and puh-lease i can out dps second wind as a WW monk, the most shit pvp dps atm.. if i can kill a warrior through it on the, arguably, worst class (and im not any great shakes at pvp) then its no excuse for other people (unless you're somehow worse than me)

OP just seems to be ranting that he cant dot up a warrior and kite him around anymore like kittyclysm

[Ghaleon]

Yea sure go ahead nerf it so any class can just face roll and beat a warrior, we can already be endlessly kited by ranged classes.

[Jawless Jones]

For example, just reduce the healing done to 2%.

outside of wpvp it IS at 2%, if blizzard lowers it anymore it'll be next to useless and be another useless talent in a row of crappy talents

compare 2nd wind to hybrid healing, the main disadvantage 2nd wind has is that it procs dangerously close to execute range (so close you need roughly 1 crit by one person to get to execute range, or 2 non crits done by more than one person to get the warrior to execute range)

[Fiddlesnarf]

Yea sure go ahead nerf it so any class can just face roll and beat a warrior, we can already be endlessly kited by ranged classes.

If, as a Warrior, the highest mobility class in the game, you are getting endlessly kited...
Well, I'm not saying you're terrible... but you're terrible.