Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[jugzilla]

Omg...four days going back and forth as to the meaning of the word weapon...

[TZucchini]

The Guardian put together a really cool interactive infographic. It outlines gun laws in the US, state by state.

Check it out.

[Tinykong]

Omg...four days going back and forth as to the meaning of the word weapon...

That's kind of what people "do" here.

One side uses the definition to prove their argument, the other side uses the definition to disprove the other.

[Mayhem]

That's kind of what people "do" here.

One side uses the definition to prove their argument, the other side uses the definition to disprove the other.

except when one side declares that definitions aren´t definitions by definition

[Wildtree]

This whole post assumes that a safe is the only way to responsibly store weapons, that everyone who has a weapon also has kids, that those kids couldn't possibly be responsible enough to handle those firearms in a safe way.

In other words, you're assuming the worst in every situation.

You are aware that this is exactly the principle of any law in existence?
We have laws on the assumption of the worst case...
And congratulations on reading what I've wrote wrong... A cupboard can hardly be called a safe. It's a simple wooden box.. Sturdy, but wooden nonetheless..


This is a safe..... See the difference?

Enforcing a mandatory safe law is like enforcing background checks on private citizens. You're literally asking an already hard pressed police force with dwindling budgets to do more with less.

and there's nothing wrong with that..
In fact, that the police is hard pressed has everything to do with non existent laws that keep the people from fucking around.
Before you tell us now that people will still fuck around, that's actually true. But to a much lesser extend.

I mean, don't you think there's a reason 99% of the background checks that are failed by felons go without being investigated/prosecuted?

You implying the law enforcement does a bad job? And if so, you implying that it's a budget problem and not a behavioral problem of the society?

[Tinykong]

except when one side declares that definitions aren´t definitions by definition

And to counter that, the other side will arbitrarily ignore definitions, or claim a "semantics" argument when the usage of the terms don't align with their post.

[Svifnymr]

Assault Weapons sound like an advanced version of a gun(Haha sounds obvious at face value).

Sturmgewehr, assault/storm-rifle. For storming/ assaulting positions, like buildings and such, small to make it easy to handle, intermediate round to make it less recoiling.

It's more a reflection on the press/ politicians, that they just come up with catchphrases to try to paint this gun as different from that gun. Pocket Rocket, Saturday Night Special, Assault Weapon among others, trying to make a classification so they can say "oooh, ohhh, this one is evil, see!".

But really the amusing part of the "advanced version" is just how OLD most of these designs are, like the tommy gun.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Sturmgewehr, assault/storm-rifle. For storming/ assaulting positions, like buildings and such, small to make it easy to handle, intermediate round to make it less recoiling.

It's more a reflection on the press/ politicians, that they just come up with catchphrases to try to paint this gun as different from that gun. Pocket Rocket, Saturday Night Special, Assault Weapon among others, trying to make a classification so they can say "oooh, ohhh, this one is evil, see!".

But really the amusing part of the "advanced version" is just how OLD most of these designs are, like the tommy gun.

That was a bit more substance. Thank you.

[Masark]

It's more a reflection on the press/ politicians, that they just come up with catchphrases to try to paint this gun as different from that gun. Pocket Rocket, Saturday Night Special, Assault Weapon among others, trying to make a classification so they can say "oooh, ohhh, this one is evil, see!".

Well, we could always just do what we do up here and call them "prohibited weapons".

[Svifnymr]

did you read his answer? he thinks what you´re trying to say is that something should be defined by how it is commonly used

not that it is... see the difference? judges would have a hard time if they couldn´t follow definitions of things how they are originally designed

"you´re not allowed to own weapons"
"but sir, they aren´t weapons, look, they were just hanging on the wall"

Years ago, a woman was arrested for trying to take a firearm on a plane. Cameras were rolling as the 80 year old woman tried to cover her face for the perp-walk.

Then they showed the gun, a Colt Derringer, single shot 22short, mounted to a plaque. Permanently mounted, gun rendered inoperable even when you manage to get it off the plaque.

http://coltcollectables.com/images/6...0DERRINGER.JPG

So, yeah, there are rules for when things are one thing but not another, this gun is not a weapon anymore than a framed diploma is, but is still a firearm. A felon is barred from owning Firearms, not weapons, they can own all the swords/crossbows they want.

- - - Updated - - -

Depends on your need
If you got a colt it's obvious that it doesn't have to be big. If you have more weapons, it needs to be bigger. Hence why I mentioned cupboards too..
The costs of a safe can be very high. Smaller safes ought to be built into a wall though. It's gotta be more difficult to carry it away, than simply grab it under your arm and walk out with it. Bigger safes are normally also heavier anyway.

Actually, what I would like is a small, portable lock-safe, like are so common everywhere, but with a little GPS transmitter that could be activated if it's stolen, like Lojack for cars. As long as you can track it before it can be opened, it would solve a crime, recover a gun, and keep the gun out of criminals hands.

Yeah, rifles should be secured also, but the vast majority of stolen guns used in crimes are handguns, so I'd rather see a focus on preventing their theft, rather than just a blanket "all guns are bad, lock everything up" or the more focused "assault weapons kill children, ban them!" rhetoric.

Though, I mean, I think this is another discussion that comes up every 100 pages or so.

[Mayhem]

And to counter that, the other side will arbitrarily ignore definitions, or claim a "semantics" argument when the usage of the terms don't align with their post.

what definitions? what terms didn´t align?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

what definitions? what terms didn´t align?

He's referring to other debates hinting that some posters here are hypocrites.

[Tinykong]

what definitions? what terms didn´t align?

Plenty of examples, in this thread and others. I wasn't referring to you specifically, just making a general statement.

[Svifnymr]

Well, we could always just do what we do up here and call them "prohibited weapons".

You can't, in the USA, just say you want to ban things, you've first got to selectively demonize it to cater to the average person who knows nothing about the subject.

Canada has 2 main laws (aside from all the registration) concerning types of guns, that I am aware of. A limit on anything under 4" barrel, and a limit on magazine size to 10 rounds.

So you guys can easily get this:


While we cannot.

As an aside, Canadian's 10 round limit has been in place for a long time, but never gets studied/ quoted in these discussions, a casual search I've done never really showed what it's impact is/was on criminal activity.

[Mayhem]

Years ago, a woman was arrested for trying to take a firearm on a plane. Cameras were rolling as the 80 year old woman tried to cover her face for the perp-walk.

Then they showed the gun, a Colt Derringer, single shot 22short, mounted to a plaque. Permanently mounted, gun rendered inoperable even when you manage to get it off the plaque.

http://coltcollectables.com/images/6...0DERRINGER.JPG

So, yeah, there are rules for when things are one thing but not another, this gun is not a weapon anymore than a framed diploma is, but is still a firearm. A felon is barred from owning Firearms, not weapons, they can own all the swords/crossbows they want.

by definition this isn´t a firearm anymore, it looks like one though, and i doubt she was convicted for bringing a firearm onboard an airplane

and alright, i wasn´t aware that people are allowed to own crossbows and swords... still it stands if only the usage defined what it is then a firearm only is a weapon as soon as you pull the trigger and damage something/someone

by that definition you could bring all the firearms you´d want onto an airplane because, they aren´t weapons yet

[Svifnymr]

by definition this isn´t a firearm anymore, it looks like one though, and i doubt she was convicted for bringing a firearm onboard an airplane

Not sure if she was convicted, since the news never follows up on stories, but they were classified as firearms. I had a guy who bought 1 of them, had it transfered to the store where I worked, and then we ripped it off the plaque and tried to get it working again. (He found it cheaper than just buying the Lord's derringer itself.) Eventually he just gave up and bought a NAA mini-revolver like I'd told him from the start...

and alright, i wasn´t aware that people are allowed to own crossbows and swords... still it stands if only the usage defined what it is then a firearm only is a weapon as soon as you pull the trigger and damage something/someone

Well, that was the point of my example, that "firearm" and "weapon" are different classifications.

by that definition you could bring all the firearms you´d want onto an airplane because, they aren´t weapons yet

In the USA, a firearm is the frame of a gun. It does not have to be assembled, it is a firearm. (Though, I doubt they'd let you carry a barrel onto a plane.)

This:


That is a firearm, everything else is parts that go on the firearm to make it work. Legally, just that part requires all the paperwork of a firearm.

But, to use a different example if you want to discuss planes, you couldn't bring a fake grenade on a plane either, even though it does absolutely nothing.

[Mayhem]

or everything else that´s considered a weapon... i never denied they are different classifications, though i´m a bit confused that the picture is classified as a firearm, where´d you get that from?

[Masark]

Canada has 2 main laws (aside from all the registration) concerning types of guns, that I am aware of. A limit on anything under 4" barrel, and a limit on magazine size to 10 rounds.

As an aside, Canadian's 10 round limit has been in place for a long time, but never gets studied/ quoted in these discussions, a casual search I've done never really showed what it's impact is/was on criminal activity.

10 rounds is handguns (which themselves are "restricted weapons"). Semi-automatic centre-fire rifles* are limited to 5 rounds. Rifles that accept handgun magazines are prohibited.

Also, rifles can't have a barrel shorter than 18" and must be at least 26" overall. The 26" is with anything folded or retracted, if applicable.

As for the picture, I believe that specific model is prohibited (barrel is too short and is probably too short overall if that's the folding stock version), though there is a version with an extended barrel that is non-restricted.

*manual action rifles or semi-automatic rifles firing rim-fire cartridges can have as much magazine as you like.

[Rukentuts]

People who don't want to store their guns in a safe wouldn't put them in there anyway, so I'm not about to give them another excuse to skip out on taxes.

Their gun stored under their pillow is statistically more likely to be used on them than against an invader. If they're ok with that, so am I.

We can file it under Social Darwinism.

Love your sig btw.

[Phanuel]

or everything else that´s considered a weapon... i never denied they are different classifications, though i´m a bit confused that the picture is classified as a firearm, where´d you get that from?

That's the part of that particular firearm (1911 pistol) that is serialized and considered the firearm per the ATF. Most pistol frames, not slides, are considered firearms and must go through FFLs for sale.

It is what it is.

A SCAR for example, the upper receiver is the firearm and the lower receiver with the fire control group is just a piece of molded plastic according to the ATF. This is opposite of an AR-15.