Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[petej0]

I figured that we could agree that older people tend to be more mature than younger people.....

I mean honestly. Do you really need a citation for that?

Well, in that case lets up the drinking age to 31 this way we can eliminate drunk driving!

[Tinykong]

you mean despite the 3 years difference making the 21 year person older than the 18 year one?

If you can show there is some rationale behind the age selection, please do. Saying "older people tend to be more mature" is flimsy and arbitrary.

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are you now picking fights for the fun of it? i mean, seriously?

If I was making arguments based on perceptions instead of facts, people would call me out on them.

[petej0]

and you see no difference between military trained people and civilians?

So could 18, 19 and 20 year olds serving in the military get an exemption and be allowed to drink and own private firearms?

[Mayhem]

If you can show there is some rationale behind the age selection, please do. Saying "older people tend to be more mature" is flimsy and arbitrary.

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If I was making arguments based on perceptions instead of facts, people would call me out on them.

http://www.livescience.com/7005-brai...ly-mature.html

it probably should be raised to 24 or 25 rather than 21

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So could 18, 19 and 20 year olds serving in the military get an exemption and be allowed to drink and own private firearms?

does military training require drinking? to private owned firearms, well it´s a bit silly if you´re training with them, pretty much working with them but aren´t allowed to own them, so i say yes, why not

[TZucchini]

That's not what you are arguing. You're saying that there is some difference between a 21 year old and an 18 year old that requires their rights to be restricted.

Their rights are not being restricted. If they're under 21, they don't have the right to begin with. You can't restrict something that isn't there.

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http://www.livescience.com/7005-brai...ly-mature.html

it probably should be raised to 24 or 25 rather than 21

Next: Please provide a citation that water is wet.

[petej0]

does military training require drinking?

Requires? Maybe not, leads to? Now that is a different story, lol. I just threw drinking in there because as someone who served while under 21 it irritated me a lot. I am supposedly responsible enough to carry out the orders given to me, but I cant be trusted to drink? Please...

to private owned firearms, well it´s a bit silly if you´re training with them, pretty much working with them but aren´t allowed to own them, so i say yes, why not

The whole thing is silly. "Legally you are an adult but you are not mature enough so we will hold these right back. In the meantime here are some new rights for you!"

[Tinykong]

Their rights are not being restricted. If they're under 21, they don't have the right to begin with. You can't restrict something that isn't there.

It was there prior to 1968.

[lockedout]

It's almost like private firearm ownership is different than serving in the military.

Yet somehow they don't mow down their fellow soldiers being all immature, but if they were home it's a killing spree and they are no where near mature enough.

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Your citation isn't a study. It's a blog by some guy that ends with "To believe that the minimum legal drinking age (MLDA) of 21 is effective is to ignore the facts and live in a fantasy world." Doesn't sound very reputable.

Well he is a doctor and you're a random forum poster, you are entitled to your opinion even though facts debunk it.
by David J. Hanson, Ph.D. Sociology Department
State University of New York
Potsdam, NY 13676

[Eroginous]

The Supreme Court disagrees with you. Sorry!

Because angry old white men are really in touch with what's best for the youth of this country.

As if the SCOTUS judges are infallible.

Lowering the drinking age to 18 resulted in thousands of more traffic accidents and fatalities.

Yes. Older people, on average, tend to act more responsibly.

That's funny, the drinking age is 18-19 in Canada. I'm willing to bet they have far less drinking and driving fatalities than the US amongst people ages 18-21. It's probably more accurate to say that our culture (and subsequent prohibition of alcohol for persons under 21) has more to do with the immaturity of young people and alcohol, than the negative effects of alcohol themselves.

You can't teach people responsibility if you deny them access to that which you expect them to be responsible of.

Yeah that's just great. Let's give high school seniors access to as many firearms as they would like to buy. What could possibly go wrong?

The irony being that we're more than willing to allow high school seniors to enlist in a military which will put them on the front lines of major conflict with a rifle slung on their back and a side arm strapped to their leg. Not only do we give high school seniors training on how to handle such weapons, but we train them how to kill people and then expect them to risk their lives doing it.

Meanwhile, you want to revoke their rights to owning a gun because they developed PTSD after putting everything on the line in some military conflict overseas. But normal people who don't sign up for the military can't have firearms until 21.

Talk about your triple standards.

[TZucchini]

Because angry old white men are really in touch with what's best for the youth of this country.

As if the SCOTUS judges are infallible.

We get it. You love the Constitution (2nd Amendment) when it works in your favor, and hate it when it doesn't work in your favor (article III).

The irony being that we're more than willing to allow high school seniors to enlist in a military which will put them on the front lines of major conflict with a rifle slung on their back and a side arm strapped to their leg.

Still with this failed comparison? Private firearm ownership and military enlistment are not synonymous. Like at all.

And for the record, I would completely support the right of every single 18 year old to purchase and own firearms if they had military training.

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Well he is a doctor and you're a random forum poster, you are entitled to your opinion even though facts debunk it.
by David J. Hanson, Ph.D. Sociology Department
State University of New York
Potsdam, NY 13676

Of all the times I've been accused (wrongly so) of argument from authority, and you guys are gonna let this gem slide? Ero, Tiny...Where are you guys? Only like to call them out when it bolsters your claims? I mean, this is a text-book case.

[lockedout]

We get it. You love the Constitution (2nd Amendment) when it works in your favor, and hate it when it doesn't work in your favor (article III).



Still with this failed comparison? Private firearm ownership and military enlistment are not synonymous. Like at all.

And for the record, I would completely support the right of every single 18 year old to purchase and own firearms if they had military training.

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Of all the times I've been accused (wrongly so) of argument from authority, and you guys are gonna let this gem slide? Ero, Tiny...Where are you guys? Only like to call them out when it bolsters your claims? I mean, this is a text-book case.

So what you're saying is military training of a firearm somehow makes you more mature?
Remember we are talking about 18 years old being not mature enough to purchase a firearm but 21 is mature enough to purchase one.

[TZucchini]

So what you're saying is military training of a firearm somehow makes you more mature?

It makes you infinitely more competent in all aspects of firearm usage. Firearm safety and responsibility being one of those aspects. Would you disagree?

[lockedout]

It makes you infinitely more competent in all aspects of firearm usage. Firearm safety and responsibility being one of those aspects. Would you disagree?

I think you would gain some knowledge of firearm use and safety, that doesn't however make you more mature.

[TZucchini]

I think you would gain some knowledge of firearm use and safety, that doesn't however make you more mature.

Id argue that basic training makes you grow the fuck up quick.

[lockedout]

Id argue that basic training makes you grow the fuck up quick.

Opinion's are nice, mine differs from yours. You will "grow up" about 10 weeks after basic training is completed.

[petej0]

It makes you infinitely more competent in all aspects of firearm usage. Firearm safety and responsibility being one of those aspects. Would you disagree?

So if an 18 year old was competent and was properly trained, but not in the military, would you still have the same feelings?

[Kellhound]

It makes you infinitely more competent in all aspects of firearm usage. Firearm safety and responsibility being one of those aspects. Would you disagree?

Uhmmm, yeah, I would disagree. My junior high required us to take hunters safety, it covered safe firearms handling better than my basic training did. The both were far less in depth than what my father taught me though, or what I have taught my 14 year old daughter.

[TZucchini]

So if an 18 year old was competent and was properly trained, but not in the military, would you still have the same feelings?

I'd still feel a little uneasy about giving high school seniors access to firearms, but it would certainly help. I think there's something about joining the military that makes a kid grow up quick. I think you'd probably agree with that.

However, if an 18 year old had the same level of firearm training that the Army provides, if they have passed their respective background checks, mental health checks, if they agree to store their weapon safely, re-train and re-certify every year...if they could agree to do all this, I would feel infinitely better about firearm ownership in this country than I currently do.

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Uhmmm, yeah, I would disagree. My junior high required us to take hunters safety, it covered safe firearms handling better than my basic training did.

That would be anecdotal. I'm talking about your average 18 year old.

The both were far less in depth than what my father taught me though, or what I have taught my 14 year old daughter.

That's fantastic. Would you support a law that makes that level of firearm training and safety mandatory? I mean, I'm sure your fathers instructions made you more competent with firearms. I'm sure it's made you a much more responsible gun owner. So why not make strict training and safety courses a federal law?

[Deleted]

re-train and re-certify every year...

And why exactly would this be needed ?

[lockedout]

And why exactly would this be needed ?

It will make you more mature.