Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Tinykong]

Except your cars to guns infographic was entirely illogical and did nothing.....please do continue.

He still hasn't figured out that the comparison wasn't flawed because it was comparing cars to guns.

[PhaelixWW]

Yes, but that was not what i was saying now was it?? Some people brought up rape and murder in the house, thats what i replied to, and not about traffic. Having a weapon because someone might come in the night and kill you is paranoia and not "being prepared".

From the US Departmant of Justice (DoJ) Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) comes a report in 2010 about home invasions. Among the highlights, it states:

*An estimated 3.7 million burglaries occurred each year on average from 2003 to 2007.

*A household member was present in roughly 1 million burglaries and became victims of violent crimes in 266,560 burglaries.

*Simple assault (15%) was the most common form of violence when a resident was home and violence occurred. Robbery (7%) and rape (3%) were less likely to occur when a household member was present and violence occurred.

*Overall, 61% of offenders were unarmed when violence occurred during a burglary while a resident was present. About 12% of all households violently burglarized while someone was home faced an offender armed with a firearm.

*Serious injury accounted for 9% and minor injury accounted for 36% of injuries sustained by household members who were home and experienced violence during a completed burglary.

So let's see. 3% of those included rape, right?

3% of 266,560 is 7997. So eight thousand people are raped in a home invasion each year. And you seem to want to hand-wave away the potential danger.

You might as well hand-wave away gun homicides, then, since the number of those is fairly close to the number of home invasion rapes.

Looking at the other numbers, people are assaulted in a home invasion 40k times a year. People are seriously injured in a home invasion about 24k times a year. And people confront an intruder with a gun during a home invasion 32k times a year.

All of those are more common than getting murdered with a gun in general. Why is it ridiculous to be prepared?

[Tinykong]

Why is it ridiculous to be prepared?

Their irrational fear trumps your rational fear.

Oh, and lets not forget the completely unsubstantiated and irrelevant claim that you are more likely to hurt yourself with the gun because science.

[TwoNineMarine]

Their irrational fear trumps your rational fear.

Oh, and lets not forget the completely unsubstantiated and irrelevant claim that you are more likely to hurt yourself with the gun because science.

That science though.

I'm pretty sure it's science if you put the word scientific at the beginning of a study.

[PhaelixWW]

He still hasn't figured out that the comparison wasn't flawed because it was comparing cars to guns.

Well, hey, I tried to point out with my dogs and cats analogy that sometimes, two things can be compared in one way but not another.

But he skated right by that and now he keeps trying to say that he's using the same comparison logic as we are, which isn't true.

I mean, the whole concept of "compare and contrast" that most kids get taught in school, using venn diagrams, is about all you need to logically understand that things are similar in some ways and different in others. If the venn diagrams lined up perfectly, then the two items would basically be the same item and no comparison would be necessary.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, and lets not forget the completely unsubstantiated and irrelevant claim that you are more likely to hurt yourself with the gun because science.

Because living in a bad neighborhood and having someone come into your house and kill you is clearly caused by your ownership of a firearm. And if you hadn't purchased a firearm, then it wouldn't have happened, right?

[Tinykong]

Because living in a bad neighborhood and having someone come into your house and kill you is clearly caused by your ownership of a firearm. And if you hadn't purchased a firearm, then it wouldn't have happened, right?

Or because we included suicides into the figures in order to skew the statistics away from relevant context into the realm of fantasy.

[PhaelixWW]

That science though.

I'm pretty sure it's science if you put the word scientific at the beginning of a study.

The sad truth is that some of those studies are biased in nature. And they are scientific, but they're using incomplete data and yield vague and often specious conclusions.

The problem is more that, despite how much the scientists couch their conclusion in ambiguity ("appear, correlate, indicate, show, etc."), the majority of people who read the study (but who don't grasp the inherent nature of said ambiguity as an integral part of that conclusion) will try to put forth the conclusion in absolute terms. Reading proven when it says indicated. Reading causal when it says correlative.

[Titan2k10]

That science though.

I'm pretty sure it's science if you put the word scientific at the beginning of a study.

Waiting on Ruken to come along quote this with a personal attack or a downplaying of its significance to his biased polls and move on...

[Tinykong]

The sad truth is that some of those studies are biased in nature. And they are scientific, but they're using incomplete data and yield vague and often specious conclusions.

The problem is more that, despite how much the scientists couch their conclusion in ambiguity ("appear, correlate, indicate, show, etc."), the majority of people who read the study (but who don't grasp the inherent nature of said ambiguity as an integral part of that conclusion) will try to put forth the conclusion in absolute terms. Reading proven when it says indicated. Reading causal when it says correlative.

Any study that remotely relates to their opinions is a panacea.

[Deleted]

I don't think a helmet would help.

It also depends on where you live. I currently live in a safe neighborhood that has seen maybe 1 break-in in the past 5 years, so I probably don't need my gun, so you're probably right. However, I also used to live in a very dangerous neighborhood near Seattle at one time and I actually used to carry a concealed-carry with me. The firepower I use currently is far diminished, and maybe I'll even put my S&W Shield in my safe with the rest of my arsenal, but I do like having the option to defend myself and my family if I need to.

And again, it is better than the flare gun I used to carry. You'll never be able to ban those, but they sure as hell will drop your attacker. Oh my yes they will.

- - - Updated - - -



That was my purposefully exaggerated example, not his.

But is that not just counter productive? I mean, you need a gun because everyone has one, and therefor all criminals must have one. Its an arms race in witch you will always lose as a civilian. If someone wants to hurt you, or wants to break into your home it is going to happen anyway. The only thing to make that stop is by taking away the reason why they feel the need to do that. If everyone has guns it is far more likely that someone will get hurt or killed, it can just as well be the attacker as it can be the home owner. It all depends on how far either of them is willing to go, and with a gun in your hand you feel pretty powerful. If you take guns out of the equation then far less shit will happen.

Yea, the meteor was an exaggeration, but it was a funny one so i ran with it ;P So kudo's to you! Have an internetpoint!!

[Titan2k10]

But is that not just counter productive? I mean, you need a gun because everyone has one, and therefor all criminals must have one. Its an arms race in witch you will always lose as a civilian. If someone wants to hurt you, or wants to break into your home it is going to happen anyway. The only thing to make that stop is by taking away the reason why they feel the need to do that. If everyone has guns it is far more likely that someone will get hurt or killed, it can just as well be the attacker as it can be the home owner. It all depends on how far either of them is willing to go, and with a gun in your hand you feel pretty powerful. If you take guns out of the equation then far less shit will happen.

Yea, the meteor was an exaggeration, but it was a funny one so i ran with it ;P So kudo's to you! Have an internetpoint!!

You're looking at this as a homeowner has one and thats the reason a criminal gets one when it is probably more frequently 95%+ the other way around...

[Tinykong]

A firearm for self defense is just about force multiplication. If some criminal wants to get into your house, they will. Unless you are Jason Bourne, you probably can't whip the criminals ass with your bare hands, so you need something to either scare them away, or actually engage them. I'd imagine most criminals would run away just from the sound of hearing a shotgun rack. The ones that wouldn't are probably willing or hoping to kill you anyway, so, might as well even the odds.

[PhaelixWW]

Its an arms race in witch you will always lose as a civilian.

And you win an arms race by giving up your right to arm yourself? Even on an international level, disarmament only works when both sides agree on terms. Good luck getting criminals to disarm themselves at this point.

If you take guns out of the equation then far less shit will happen.

And how would you honestly expect to take guns out of an equation that has 300 million firearms already in circulation?


And any chance you'll respond to the statistics I posted which shows you that the threat is a lot more real than you wanted to believe?

- - - Updated - - -

Any study that remotely relates to their opinions is a panacea.

Sad, but true.

[Deleted]

From the US Departmant of Justice (DoJ) Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) comes a report in 2010 about home invasions. Among the highlights, it states:


So let's see. 3% of those included rape, right?

3% of 266,560 is 7997. So eight thousand people are raped in a home invasion each year. And you seem to want to hand-wave away the potential danger.

You might as well hand-wave away gun homicides, then, since the number of those is fairly close to the number of home invasion rapes.

Looking at the other numbers, people are assaulted in a home invasion 40k times a year. People are seriously injured in a home invasion about 24k times a year. And people confront an intruder with a gun during a home invasion 32k times a year.

All of those are more common than getting murdered with a gun in general. Why is it ridiculous to be prepared?

And how do you make this better with guns? Because (more than) double that amount if people got killed by gunfire a year in the USA. Yes its fucked up that it happens, but according to your own quote it seems that only 12% of the offenders was carrying. So there goes the defense "but the criminals always have guns, so i need one too".
But apart from that, it does not fix the problem, it only makes it worse by bringing more guns into play. Take away the problem, or at least work on the problem. And not just create another one, because to me that is what the guns are doing. The problem here would be people feel the need to break in for whatever reason, take away those reasons and you take away a large portion of the threat.

[LilSaihah]

And how do you make this better with guns?

my gran can use a gun to shoot, or at least scare off, an 18 year old thug
my gran can not knife fight with an 18 year old thug

[Cthulhu 2020]

He still hasn't figured out that the comparison wasn't flawed because it was comparing cars to guns.

Dat "We can compare deaths and regulations between the two, but you can't" logic.

Doesn't look hypocritical at all.

[Deleted]

my gran can use a gun to shoot, or at least scare off, an 18 year old thug
my gran can not knife fight with an 18 year old thug

So for that reason over 17.000 people in the US had to die every year? Should you not search for you know, a better solution?

[Tinykong]

Dat "We can compare deaths and regulations between the two, but you can't" logic.

Doesn't look hypocritical at all.

Comparing deaths? Sure.

Comparing apples to apples regulations? Sure.

What you can't do, is what the infographic did: make faulty comparisons.

[PhaelixWW]

And how do you make this better with guns? Because (more than) double that amount if people got killed by gunfire a year in the USA.

Only if you include suicides. Firearm homicides are around 9k. So nearly the same number of rapes during a home invasion as firearm homicides per year.

Yes its fucked up that it happens, but according to your own quote it seems that only 12% of the offenders was carrying. So there goes the defense "but the criminals always have guns, so i need one too".

12% of 267k is still 32k times that someone faces an armed intruder in a home invasion.

In other words, you're almost 4 times as likely to face an intruder armed with a firearm in a home invasion as you are to be murdered anywhere by a firearm.

And I'm not sure if anybody said that the criminals always have guns, merely that with the number of guns already out there, it's best to assume that the criminals have guns and plan accordingly.

Take away the problem, or at least work on the problem. And not just create another one, because to me that is what the guns are doing.

Sure, working on the socioeconomic factors that lead to crime should be the #1 priority. Banning firearms is not working on the problem, however.

And the guns aren't creating the problem, they're responding to the problem. Basically, defend against the present threat for today, and work on the root causes of the problems for the safety of tomorrow.

Out of curiosity, just how quickly do you think we'd be able to disarm criminals with guns if you tried to ban firearm ownership in the US?

[LilSaihah]

So for that reason over 17.000 people in the US had to die every year? Should you not search for you know, a better solution?

17000 people don't die in the US because guns are legal

17000 people die in the US because their mental health services are behind the rest of the world, they have an imprisonment rate higher than every other country on the planet and a public education system which sucks dick- all factors which feed into a massive, and constantly growing, lower class