Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Mayhem]

Probably because telling me to read a book that there's a 0% chance he's actually read isn't an argument.

Spoilers: If that book actually referred to any contemporaneous writing by any of the framers or even state legislators to the writing or intent of the 2nd Amendment, and Daelak had read that book, he could have just, y'know, [I]referred to those writings directly and told me to read /I] those instead of yeeting the name of a book onto the thread and hoping it would do the work for him.

But it doesn't.

Because the 2nd Amendment wasn't written or intended as a "slave patrol" power. Nor as a general state power to maintain an arsenal on a list of amendments that are without exception written as limits on state power. It's fraud, it's perfidy, it's a myth invented starting in the 1970s or so as a work of historical fanfic.

Don't take my 20+ page absences the wrong way - it's been well over 2000 pages since I had even the slightest respect for several of your willingness or capacity to learn or to think rationally or even to discuss honestly. I mean, Daelak's on ignore; the only time I even know what he actually said is because I made the conscious choice to click because I was like "I gotta know what kind of fuckery this is"

Well, you should be able to present sources that explain the intent then. I directly quoted from the book as parts can be read on google books and that paints a different picture, it also gives an interesting insight into what happened back then especially how people of color were treated during the first months/years of the war for independence.

[Bodakane]

[Theodarzna]

It is rather odd to see Biden's mockery of private gun ownership as a defense against plausible tyranny, "If you think you need weapons to take on the government, then you need F15s and maybe some nuclear weapons," said Biden. "The point is there has always been the ability to rationally limit the type of weapon that can be owned, and who can own it."

But remember a few hundred MAGA people almost certainly were a hair's breathe away from overthrowing OUR DEMOCRACY (TM) and are such a threat to the stability of the United States government that we need a permanent militarized DC and a new Domestic War on Terror.

Also shit I don't remember the Vietcong nor the Taliban having nukes or F15s either.

Once again I invoke Karl Marx:

[Mayhem]

Theo being the usual reactionary.

What's the context to Marx's quote?

Also, I do hope you understand the difference between military-trained people in a foreign country using guerilla warfare tactics and random armed civilians in the suburbs.

[Theodarzna]

Theo being the usual reactionary.

What's the context to Marx's quote?

Also, I do hope you understand the difference between military-trained people in a foreign country using guerilla warfare tactics and random armed civilians in the suburbs.

> Person Quotes Marx...

You: "THAT'S REACTIONARY!"

Liberals are an amazing lot.

As for the context? Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League in 1850. Funny enough it was in response to a Liberal Democratic party in Germany. In response to the threat from a democratic party in Germany that had previously tried to make suggestions that it was on side with Marx and the Communist League in 1848. Marx chided the alliance with Liberals and called form the workers to be armed knowing the this other party was about to turn on them.

[Mayhem]

> Person Quotes Marx...

You: "THAT'S REACTIONARY!"

Liberals are an amazing lot.

As for the context? Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League in 1850. Funny enough it was in response to a Liberal Democratic party in Germany. In response to the threat from a democratic party in Germany that had previously tried to make suggestions that it was on side with Marx and the Communist League in 1848. Marx chided the alliance with Liberals and called form the workers to be armed knowing the this other party was about to turn on them.

First of, I am far from a Liberal. Second of, you probably don't quite know what a reactionary is. And third of, here's the complete quote because context is fun:

"To be able forcefully and threateningly to oppose this party, whose betrayal of the workers will begin with the very first hour of victory, the workers must be armed and organized. The whole proletariat must be armed at once with muskets, rifles, cannon and ammunition, and the revival of the old-style citizens’ militia, directed against the workers, must be opposed. Where the formation of this militia cannot be prevented, the workers must try to organize themselves independently as a proletarian guard, with elected leaders and with their own elected general staff; they must try to place themselves not under the orders of the state authority but of the revolutionary local councils set up by the workers. Where the workers are employed by the state, they must arm and organize themselves into special corps with elected leaders, or as a part of the proletarian guard. Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary. The destruction of the bourgeois democrats’ influence over the workers, and the enforcement of conditions which will compromise the rule of bourgeois democracy, which is for the moment inevitable, and make it as difficult as possible – these are the main points which the proletariat and therefore the League must keep in mind during and after the approaching uprising."

See this? The workers should be armed against the militias. The militias were used not only in Germany but in the US and other countries as well to bust unions, so with your out-of-context quote, you're directly arguing against the 2nd amendment at least the militia part. Well done.

[Theodarzna]

First of, I am far from a Liberal.

Alright, Conservative? What do you want?

See this? The workers should be armed against the militias. The militias were used not only in Germany but in the US and other countries as well to bust unions, so with your out-of-context quote, you're directly arguing against the 2nd amendment at least the militia part. Well done.

Ah, so in the Liberal imagination Marx would be for The Capitalist State disarming the Working Class? Please, run that by me.

[Mayhem]

Alright, Conservative? What do you want?

I am a social democrat.

Ah, so in the Liberal imagination Marx would be for The Capitalist State disarming the Working Class? Please, run that by me.

Reading isn't your strong point, is it? The context is about unions, not just random citizens. Do you understand the difference? You should be for creating unions in every way possible not arguing about arming civilians to fight state militias.

[Theodarzna]

I am a social democrat.

Literally the party that Marx warned would betray the revolution and was talking about. Hilarious.

Reading isn't your strong point, is it? The context is about unions, not just random citizens. Do you understand the difference? You should be for creating unions in every way possible not arguing about arming civilians to fight state militias.

Are Unions composed of what? Other Unions? Who is in Unions? People I'm guessing. You know humans, with two arms, two legs, maybe a soul?

Again, in your imagination is Marx for the Capitalist state disarming the poor and working class of firearms?

[Mayhem]

Literally the party that Marx warned would betray the revolution and was talking about. Hilarious.

So you're a communist then?

Are Unions composed of what? Other Unions? Who is in Unions? People I'm guessing. You know humans, with two arms, two legs, maybe a soul?

Does the word context have any meaning to you?

Again, in your imagination is Marx for the Capitalist state disarming the poor and working class of firearms?

Well if you just come up with an entirely new pretext that bears no resemblance to reality, yep he would be against. Now is the US only targeting the poor and working-class when talking about firearm regulation?

[Theodarzna]

yep he would be against.

Thank You, that is finally an answer, it was like pulling teeth but I finally got an answer.

Now is the US only targeting the poor and working-class when talking about firearm regulation?

OH!? Wait is Biden Super BASED and calling for disarming only Capital and private contractors while all workers are keeping their guns? Can't wait to read this totally real policy that Joseph Biden is promoting that I am sure exists.

[Mayhem]

Thank You, that is finally an answer, it was like pulling teeth but I finally got an answer.

I see you're deliberately ignoring everything else because it doesn't suit your out-of-context quote. For someone so adamant about not answering rather simple yes/no questions being so cocky is quite the character trait.

OH!? Wait is Biden Super BASED and calling for disarming only Capital and private contractors while all workers are keeping their guns? Can't wait to read this totally real policy that Joseph Biden is promoting that I am sure exists.

I take that as a no and accept your defeat.

[Theodarzna]

I take....

So Marx would be okay with disarmament that only hits the working class in "Social Democrat" world? Huh, what an exciting fanfiction from you.

[Mayhem]

So Marx would be okay with disarmament that only hits the working class in "Social Democrat" world? Huh, what an exciting fanfiction from you.

I never said anything that comes even close to that so no idea what you onto now. Maybe read my post instead of just deleting most of it.

[Theodarzna]

I never said anything that comes even close to that so no idea what you onto now. Maybe read my post instead of just deleting most of it.

Do you know what disparate impact is?

Lets say I pass a law, lets say, hmmmm driving with a bad headlight. The punishment is a fine 1k dollars. Now sure this law equally applies to Bill Gates as it does to your average person, but who does this law really effect? Obviously not Bill Gates.

Any gun ban will inevitably not effect Capital. After all private security, private contractor/military will not be effected, people like Bill Gates will have ready access to firearms and an entire army to enforce their demands. Gun Bans merely disarm the Workers since they lack the means to bypass the regulations nor the funds to hire private armies and police for themselves.

But hey, as Marx said, Lenin too, Social Democrats are always going to betray workers. Its what they do.

[Mayhem]

Do you know what disparate impact is?

Lets say I pass a law, lets say, hmmmm driving with a bad headlight. The punishment is a fine 1k dollars. Now sure this law equally applies to Bill Gates as it does to your average person, but who does this law really effect? Obviously not Bill Gates.

Any gun ban will inevitably not effect Capital. After all private security, private contractor/military will not be effected, people like Bill Gates will have ready access to firearms and an entire army to enforce their demands. Gun Bans merely disarm the Workers since they lack the means to bypass the regulations nor the funds to hire private armies and police for themselves.

But hey, as Marx said, Lenin too, Social Democrats are always going to betray workers. Its what they do.

Could you bring real examples instead of made-up ones? There is no gun ban announced as far as I am aware.

[Theodarzna]

Could you bring real examples instead of made-up ones? There is no gun ban announced as far as I am aware.

Well if you'd like you can go back to my first post in the chain and discuss that. That could help you out there. Besides you were the one who said:

Now is the US only targeting the poor and working-class when talking about firearm regulation?

But I am happy to put a pin in that and go to what I initially posted, Biden's recent comments.

[Mayhem]

Well if you'd like you can go back to my first post in the chain and discuss that. That could help you out there.

Your first post was a bunch of nonsense comparing guerilla warfare and trained fighters or entire armies fighting a foreign power with civilians fighting their own government. I'd hoped you understand the difference not only in terrain but also in time and equipment, apparently not. Fighting the army is the same now as it was during Marx's time.

Besides you were the one who said:

I kindly point you to the question mark at the end of that sentence indicating that it was indeed a question.

But I am happy to put a pin in that and go to what I initially posted, Biden's recent comments.

So what part of Biden's comments indicate that he promotes gun regulation that targets the poor and working-class?

[Theodarzna]

Your first post was a bunch of nonsense comparing guerilla warfare and trained fighters or entire armies fighting a foreign power with civilians fighting their own government.

Incorrect, I mean I never could expect a good faith reading of my posts here on MMO-C but let me try again for you.

I pointed out the absurdity of how Biden is declaring people with guns who think they could take on the US Government in the event of Tyranny or whatever, but at the same time himself and the entire political DNC establishment declaring Jan, 6th's riot to have been an almost coup that would have overthrown the US Election and requires a vast array of new spying powers and counter-terrorism measures. So on the one hand we are told "You couldn't possibly ever defeat us!" but also "Some guys even less well armed than militia boys out in Montana almost overthrew the US Government!"

So what part of Biden's comments indicate that he promotes gun regulation that targets the poor and working-class?

All Gun Regulation does. Again, do you know what disparate impact is?

[Mayhem]

Incorrect, I mean I never could expect a good faith reading of my posts here on MMO-C but let me try again for you.

I pointed out the absurdity of how Biden is declaring people with guns who think they could take on the US Government in the event of Tyranny or whatever, but at the same time himself and the entire political DNC establishment declaring Jan, 6th's riot to have been an almost coup that would have overthrown the US Election and requires a vast array of new spying powers and counter-terrorism measures. So on the one hand we are told "You couldn't possibly ever defeat us!" but also "Some guys even less well armed than militia boys out in Montana almost overthrew the US Government!"

Ok, where did they claim the Jan 6th riots were almost a coup? Because you keep repeating that part without ever producing anything that backs this up. It's also quite telling that Biden is specifically talking about right-wing militias and their take on militias keeping the government in check when that never was the case anywhere ever, a point you either purposefully or out of ignorance keep forgetting to mention. Militias are the ones Marx was against because they were used to quell unions. So are you somehow both against and for militias while quoting Marx's argument against them?

All Gun Regulation does. Again, do you know what disparate impact is?

Really? Free background checks target the poor and the working class? Do you have anything based on reality or are you just hoping some of your bad faith arguments stick? I mean, you haven't posted any proposed gun regulation, are you aware of that?