Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Edge-]

The mentally ill aren't shooting up our schools.

Don't bother, he's doing the whole, "Everyone who would shoot people or children is mentally ill!" schtick and refuses to engage in an actual discussion about his fictions.

[cubby]

Don't bother, he's doing the whole, "Everyone who would shoot people or children is mentally ill!" schtick and refuses to engage in an actual discussion about his fictions.

It's unfortunate that some people are taking that angle. It will only hurt everyone involved, and prevent any real movement and discourse on the subject.

[Doctor Amadeus]

The mentally ill aren't shooting up our schools. People that look just like you, on paper, are doing it.

Why not go the other direction, remove all firearms, except bolt action rifles (hunting) and revolvers (outdoor protection - i.e. bears, I live in Alaska)? And then implement your ideas regarding regulation and licensing, with appropriate entities regulating those laws.

Partly true.

Anyone who uses a gun to shoot up a kindergarten or mass shoot anywhere is mentally ill.

That act alone proves it.

At no point in my owning a gun have I ever thought shooting someone would solve anything unless my life or a loved one is threatened period. By threat I mean life and death.

[Endus]

Partly true.

Anyone who uses a gun to shoot up a kindergarten or mass shoot anywhere is mentally ill.

That act alone proves it.

This argument is categorically and definitively false. It's a lie propped up by bad-faith people who aren't interested in addressing the real problem.

Mass shooting is a moral failing, not a mental health problem. Bad people aren't "mentally ill" for doing horribly evil things, they're just evil people. Evil isn't some supernatural dark force; it's just the basic misanthropy and lack of consideration for others you can see pretty much everywhere in society. The dad who beats his kids because he's tired as fuck and can't take it any more; that fucker's evil. The guy who pumps-and-dumps crypto so he can make a million dollars and doesn't care what suckers get scammed in the process; evil. And, yes, the angry fuckheads who decide to shoot up some public place because they just want to hurt people; evil.

There is no meaningful evidence pointing to a significantly higher incidence of mental illness among mass shooters. The majority are perfectly sane. I do not understand the desperation to deflect away from their moral failings to claim they must be sick, somehow.

At no point in my owning a gun have I ever thought shooting someone would solve anything unless my life or a loved one is threatened period. By threat I mean life and death.

To be blunt; gun ownership (and being male, for that matter) have significantly better correlations with mass shooters than mental illness does. Everyone's a law-abiding peaceful gun owner. Until they suddenly aren't. There's literally no way to tell you from a potential mass shooter, except by waiting a week and checking to see which one of you shot up a school or a church or a mall or whatever.

[Doctor Amadeus]

This argument is categorically and definitively false. It's a lie propped up by bad-faith people who aren't interested in addressing the real problem.

Mass shooting is a moral failing, not a mental health problem. Bad people aren't "mentally ill" for doing horribly evil things, they're just evil people. Evil isn't some supernatural dark force; it's just the basic misanthropy and lack of consideration for others you can see pretty much everywhere in society. The dad who beats his kids because he's tired as fuck and can't take it any more; that fucker's evil. The guy who pumps-and-dumps crypto so he can make a million dollars and doesn't care what suckers get scammed in the process; evil. And, yes, the angry fuckheads who decide to shoot up some public place because they just want to hurt people; evil.

There is no meaningful evidence pointing to a significantly higher incidence of mental illness among mass shooters. The majority are perfectly sane. I do not understand the desperation to deflect away from their moral failings to claim they must be sick, somehow.

It is true, I said Mental Illness a disorder that makes it where ones reasoning and logic skills aren't working. I didn't say shit about EVIL or any mystical issue. Some might blame it also on social conditioning, and I might subscribe to that depending on who's arguing it.

As for the others you mentioned, yes those mental disorders too, people who get off on hurting others, whether they get joy from it, or don't give a shit because of what they otherwise gain from it, are mentally fucking ill/.

To be blunt; gun ownership (and being male, for that matter) have significantly better correlations with mass shooters than mental illness does. Everyone's a law-abiding peaceful gun owner. Until they suddenly aren't. There's literally no way to tell you from a potential mass shooter, except by waiting a week and checking to see which one of you shot up a school or a church or a mall or whatever.

Eh this MIGHT be true goes along with that bullshit Jorden Peterson Lunatic and he whole gray matter argument as it relates to males and females. The problem is that there are too many intersections where science ends, and philosophy and hypothesis come into play.

Some are worth entertaining most aren't and everyone has a bias.

Bottom line is that mental disorders don't ALWAYS have to present themselves as Cubby said, I am just as likely to fit the profile as anyone else psychologically, I certainly have Mental Disorders such as ADHD.

That in and of itself is not proof I am going to go out and shoot up anything, but I am perfectly alright with my background check taking longer or having to go through extra steps if I didn't already own my weapons.


NOT getting HELP, not being diagnosed having society IGNORED that shit, IS A HUGE part of the problem here.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Just to point out the bold; What mental illnesses/issues do we argue are prohibiting? What would be required for those from the sliding scale of clinical depression to BPD or Schizophrenia? Do they just get told "nope you miss out on participating because you were born wrong". On top of this, how much would it cost to ensure every single person gets thoroughly checked, vetted and who bears the cost? How does this also help off the shelf firearm purchasing, to under the counter purchasing?

Also stop conflating mass shooting = mental illness, they are not mutually inclusive.

No I am not going to stop conflating mass shootings as mental illness and I really don't give a fuck how you feel about that. Murdering people indiscriminately like fucking kindergarteners is not a sane or rational thing to do, even if the individual was a fucking boy scout all of their lives.

A single action can for sure be evidence that someone has clear mental illness.


Having a mental illness isn't a fucking identity, it's a condition that is very specific to how ones brain works or doesn't.

[Endus]

It is true, I said Mental Illness a disorder that makes it where ones reasoning and logic skills aren't working. I didn't say shit about EVIL or any mystical issue. Some might blame it also on social conditioning, and I might subscribe to that depending on who's arguing it.

Where the hell did you get the nonsense idea that there was anything supernatural or mystical about the idea of "evil"? That's the problem, right there; you're literally incapable of understanding that bad people exist, or something.

As for the others you mentioned, yes those mental disorders too, people who get off on hurting others, whether they get joy from it, or don't give a shit because of what they otherwise gain from it, are mentally fucking ill/.

NOT getting HELP, not being diagnosed having society IGNORED that shit, IS A HUGE part of the problem here.

Again, no, it isn't. The majority of mass shooters had no mental health issues that needed to be diagnoses and handled, that led to the shooting.

That's a myth, based on nothing.

https://www.columbiapsychiatry.org/news/researchers-issue-first-report-mass-shootings-columbia-mass-murder-database

Stop making shit up, dude. Your fantasies aren't reality.

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No I am not going to stop conflating mass shootings as mental illness and I really don't give a fuck how you feel about that.

Then you're in exactly the same boat as people who blame black people for gun crime.

It's that level of bigotry. And all you're saying here is you don't care how wrong you are, you're going to keep pushing that harmful scapegoating.

[Doctor Amadeus]

I never said it was sane or rational, that's your own identifiers so you don't have to admit "I was wrong, whoops". I get ego is a strong thing buddy, but you are just factually wrong.

https://journals.lww.com/hrpjournal/...ture_of.6.aspx

A good read on the factors that mental illness does not preclude acts of violence. If it was, anyone with ANY sort of mental issue would be excluded from having a firearm, as a simple risk assessment puts the likelihood of violence up. It doesn't, but you making mass shootings = mental illness a strong case for why you shouldn't have access to firearms even with treated ADHD.

Yeah but I have them NOW MUAHAHAHAAHAHAH!

Seriously dude, no I am fine with extra scrutiny if that was required. I also have a violent past when I was younger MUHAHAHAHA!

Ok Anyways, the point is that mental illness accounts for the mass amount of mass shootings, that shit going unchecked is much worse than someone simply owning fire arms who is responsible and demonstrated enough to do that.

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Where the hell did you get the nonsense idea that there was anything supernatural or mystical about the idea of "evil"? That's the problem, right there; you're literally incapable of understanding that bad people exist, or something.

As for the others you mentioned, yes those mental disorders too, people who get off on hurting others, whether they get joy from it, or don't give a shit because of what they otherwise gain from it, are mentally fucking ill/.



Again, no, it isn't. The majority of mass shooters had no mental health issues that needed to be diagnoses and handled, that led to the shooting.

That's a myth, based on nothing.

https://www.columbiapsychiatry.org/news/researchers-issue-first-report-mass-shootings-columbia-mass-murder-database

Stop making shit up, dude. Your fantasies aren't reality.

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Then you're in exactly the same boat as people who blame black people for gun crime.

It's that level of bigotry. And all you're saying here is you don't care how wrong you are, you're going to keep pushing that harmful scapegoating.

I am saying you can keep making shit up, I am going to keep pointing out what is obvious which is 1, yeah if you commit a mass shooting you were mentally ill to begin with.

2, Evil is something quantified by morality. I would say it's imaginary or requires at the very least belief. I do believe in Evil, but it revolves around people doing and knowing better vs those doing and not or not having any control, self control or otherwise.

[Endus]

I am saying you can keep making shit up, I am going to keep pointing out what is obvious which is 1, yeah if you commit a mass shooting you were mentally ill to begin with.

I'm not the one making anything up, here.

2, Evil is something quantified by morality.

Misuse of "quantified", clearly. What the hell are you even trying to say?

I would say it's imaginary or requires at the very least belief.

Then you're at odds with, like, the entire field of secular moral philosophy, and have no idea what you're talking about.

[Doctor Amadeus]

I'm not the one making anything up, here.



Misuse of "quantified", clearly. What the hell are you even trying to say?



Then you're at odds with, like, the entire field of secular moral philosophy, and have no idea what you're talking about.

I’m a Christian so my faith is based on sense especially good and evil. But I do not believe in evil that way.

Evil is knowing better and doing the opposite. Same as stupidity. Stupidity is evil and serves itself.

All mass shooters have a mental illness but not all are evil.

Some know they have a problem. Some know and don’t care. And the last don’t know and don’t get help.

The last group I’d say is the majority.

[Endus]

All mass shooters have a mental illness but not all are evil.

Repeating this over and over will never make it true. It's factually false.

[PhaelixWW]

Psychiatric Times: Cruel, Immoral Behavior Is Not Mental Illness

[Doctor Amadeus]

Psychiatric Times: Cruel, Immoral Behavior Is Not Mental Illness

See I don’t need to read that bullshit to know it’s bullshit. The statement isn’t in any way reality.

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Repeating this over and over will never make it true. It's factually false.

And no amount of links is going to convince me mass shooting of kindergarteners is sane. We’re just different kinds of people. If YOU want to make the argument without a link I’ll listen. But your links nah!

[Zinstorm]

See I don’t need to read that bullshit to know it’s bullshit. The statement isn’t in any way reality.

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And no amount of links is going to convince me mass shooting of kindergarteners is sane. We’re just different kinds of people. If YOU want to make the argument without a link I’ll listen. But your links nah!

I find your dedication to shielding yourself from perspectives outside of your own to be rather depressing..... even more so when the reason your rejecting everything other then your own viewpoint is pretty much "I know I'm right and you can't tell or show me anything that will change my mind because my view is the only form of reality".

[Endus]

And no amount of links is going to convince me mass shooting of kindergarteners is sane. We’re just different kinds of people. If YOU want to make the argument without a link I’ll listen. But your links nah!

This is just a stubborn refusal to listen to facts or reason. You prefer your fantastical imagination to reality. Literally refusing to consider facts and evidence because they conflict with the ideas you made up based on absolutely fuck-all.

[Doctor Amadeus]

I find your dedication to shielding yourself from perspectives outside of your own to be rather depressing..... even more so when the reason your rejecting everything other then your own viewpoint is pretty much "I know I'm right and you can't tell or show me anything that will change my mind because my view is the only form of reality".

Some things just aren’t up for debate and trying to redefine something with no meaning is simply that.

Mass shooters are mentally ill. It’s a fact I understand the arguments so far that “ not all mentally I’ll people are mass shooters”. It doesn’t matter because saying all mass shooters are mentally I’ll is not a specific claim it’s general.

I’m also not interested in this idea of evil by another name. Nope.

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This is just a stubborn refusal to listen to facts or reason. You prefer your fantastical imagination to reality. Literally refusing to consider facts and evidence because they conflict with the ideas you made up based on absolutely fuck-all.

It’s called reality and good sense. Nothing achieved by murdering kindergarteners. No sane person thinks so.

Based on life lived and experienced. I don’t need a lot of bullshit theories to qualify that.

If you don’t have and actual argument. Then you lost. Not the link you.

[PhaelixWW]

See I don’t need to read that bullshit to know it’s bullshit. The statement isn’t in any way reality.

It's not bullshit. You're confusing morality with sanity and rationality, as people often do.

You can be immoral and still sane and rational.

Insanity, for example, is an exculpatory condition. But people are convicted in a court of law for heinous acts all the time without being excused for being insane, because they're not.

[Doctor Amadeus]

It's not bullshit. You're confusing morality with sanity and rationality, as people often do.

You can be immoral and still sane and rational.

Insanity, for example, is an exculpatory condition. But people are convicted in a court of law for heinous acts all the time without being excused for being insane, because they're not.

No I’m not. Morality is a construct of faith instinct and intuition.

Science is just knowledge. What we know is always changing. Evidence based on empirical standards.

My statement isn’t a scientific claim. It is an opinion based my personal observation and experience.

All the links thus far are arguments based on research that I reject specifically by how it’s being presented.

And because those people aren’t here to argue with and I am not qualified to argue with them I’m not interested is clicking on the links.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Morality has nothing to do with faith. You've fucked up everything based on that incorrect preconception.

Morality has everything to do with faith. They are principles based based on values. Find 10 people and you won’t find 10 people with all the exact same values or principles.

There is a reason for that. Because your idea of right and wrong may differ from someone else’s.

The consensus is how we establish law.

Logic and reason is how we establish science.

Nobody would say mass shooters are sane. Killing kindergarteners is clear evidence of that.

[PhaelixWW]

Nobody would say mass shooters are sane. Killing kindergarteners is clear evidence of that.

Wrong. Nobody would say mass shooters are moral. That doesn't mean they're insane, because those are two completely different things.