Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Katchii]

It *is* up to the Democrats to fix it, because we've gone over at length how hopeless and fucked the GQP is in other threads. We will not, ever, get the Republicans to stop being shitheels. The *best* we can hope for is returning them to Reagan/Bush era Republicans, who were still fucking ghouls like they are today, they just *occasionally* crossed the aisle for something besides the Patriot Act. When Democrats sold them a farm in the process.

Democrats are the only hope this country has. So they need to get their shit together and start winning elections. The American people cannot afford for them to be bad at their jobs.

So instead of trying hold the party that's fucking everything up accountable for their shit, you're putting the entirety of the responsibility to fix this country on the Democrats? While essentially allowing the Republicans to continue to be shitheels with no accountability, no repercussions, and no discipline?

Like, not even trying to keep them from being shitheels, you're saying "boys will be boys" and just accepting that they'll run rampant while saying it's the Democrats fault things are fucked up.

That's like blaming the guy who's getting mugged on the street by five thugs saying he could fix this situation or could have prevented it if only he were stronger and a better fighter.

You are literally victim blaming the Democrats for the problems caused by Republicans.

I don't even have the words to describe how horrifyingly ridiculous and full of shit that sentiment is.

[Grinning Serpent]

No. I'm being pragmatic. The Republican party is not going to fix itself. Short of, through any means necessary, preventing people from casting votes for Republicans, there is no fixing that party. Not unless it effectively collapses under the weight of its own corruption and returns to a Reagan-era attitude of "conservative assholes, but they still like having a functional state." Which may happen. But none of us here are going to register as Republicans or vote for Republicans, so it has to happen without our input.

That, then, leaves us with the very simple, undeniable *fact* that it's on the Democrats to right the ship and get things moving forward. To deny this is to just deny simple reality. It doesn't matter if you find it distasteful. It's reality.

[unfilteredJW]

Once again, the problem is everything but the guns and the blame is on everyone but the people allowing these atrocities to happen.

[Katchii]

No. I'm being pragmatic. The Republican party is not going to fix itself. Short of, through any means necessary, preventing people from casting votes for Republicans, there is no fixing that party. Not unless it effectively collapses under the weight of its own corruption and returns to a Reagan-era attitude of "conservative assholes, but they still like having a functional state." Which may happen. But none of us here are going to register as Republicans or vote for Republicans, so it has to happen without our input.

That, then, leaves us with the very simple, undeniable *fact* that it's on the Democrats to right the ship and get things moving forward. To deny this is to just deny simple reality. It doesn't matter if you find it distasteful. It's reality.

No, you're not. You're being defeatist, delusional and stupid if you think giving the party fucking things up a free pass to continue fucking things up because "there's no fixing them" while giving all the responsibility to the other party is going to give any kind of meaningful result.

It's not a fact. It's your opinion.

[Nastard]

Yes, expecting Republicans to do something about gun regulation is a fool's errand. But that shouldn't ever be an excuse to absolve them from their own mess. Every time a preventable shooting occurs, it needs to be hammered home that THEY'RE responsible through their inaction. Someone else may have pulled the trigger but they're the ones who killed. I don't agree that the burden of change needs to be solely placed on Democrats shoulders. Even if futile, that burden needs to be shared. Then when Republicans fail to live up to expectations, voters will make their choice, and if Republicans lose too many votes they too will have to make a choice. Expecting the fix to come from elsewhere, while realistic, also places the blame on the wrong people when change doesn't come quickly enough.

[Elegiac]

Get your out of your ass, iif you think the democrats are your only hope, you've been living in a vacuum. I guess your one of those people who wants their student loan forgiven, well I want my mortgage forgiven. Look at history and see what socialism gives you, in other words shit in one hand and wish in the other. Long live capitalism.

Love the lack of energy. Go girl, give us nothing.

[unfilteredJW]

Get your out of your ass, iif you think the democrats are your only hope, you've been living in a vacuum. I guess your one of those people who wants their student loan forgiven, well I want my mortgage forgiven. Look at history and see what socialism gives you, in other words shit in one hand and wish in the other. Long live capitalism.

An ignorant misanthrope with a Rick and Morty signature.

I'm shocked.

[Santti]

Get your out of your ass, iif you think the democrats are your only hope, you've been living in a vacuum. I guess your one of those people who wants their student loan forgiven, well I want my mortgage forgiven. Look at history and see what socialism gives you, in other words shit in one hand and wish in the other. Long live capitalism.

Cheap-ass medicine? Free/cheap education? Homelessness basically gone?

I could go on. But I love the "What have the Romans ever done for us?" energy.

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An ignorant misanthrope with a Rick and Morty signature.

I'm shocked.

Hey hey hey hey!

We are not all like that.

[The Stormbringer]

Thanks for sharing this. Wild that it's a few years old and I'm only just hearing about it. This is the kind of thing that needs to be spread more, since I feel like humor is very disarming, and helps get past people's defenses.

[Grinning Serpent]

No, you're not. You're being defeatist, delusional and stupid if you think giving the party fucking things up a free pass to continue fucking things up because "there's no fixing them" while giving all the responsibility to the other party is going to give any kind of meaningful result.

It's not a fact. It's your opinion.

Cool. So you're going to switch your registration to Republican and vote to fix the Republican Party, right?

Because that's how you fix it. But doing that takes a vote away from the Democrats, and the Democrats can't afford to lose any votes. Not with how incompetent they are at running electoral campaigns.

Like I said: I exist in the real world. I understand the terrible situation the country is in, and I understand what the only option we have for moving forward is.

We can talk about how all the GQP nutters belong in prison or buried in unmarked graves, but that doesn't actually do anything to progress towards improving things in the here and now. Who the fuck do you think would even hold accountable all those ghouls and traitors? Certainly, not the Republicans. Know how we have the issue with cops not reporting on and holding accountable other cops for the evil things they do?

Yeah. It's the same fucking thing.

You want anything to be done about it? Then vote Democrats in. They are literally the only path forward to fixing any of this, because the Republicans will not.

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Thanks for sharing this. Wild that it's a few years old and I'm only just hearing about it. This is the kind of thing that needs to be spread more, since I feel like humor is very disarming, and helps get past people's defenses.

The problem is that people take satire and humor and start using it in place of rational thinking. Not to mention, most of what's said here is just wrong. It still holds the basic premise of "we should copy what <insert nation here> does" as the foundation, and that's just not going to work here.

[The Stormbringer]

The problem is that people take satire and humor and start using it in place of rational thinking. Not to mention, most of what's said here is just wrong. It still holds the basic premise of "we should copy what <insert nation here> does" as the foundation, and that's just not going to work here.

You know, the more you argue against things that other people have tried and found success in, the more I think to myself, "We really should just try this stuff and see if anything sticks."

The whole 'that's just not going to work here' feels more and more hollow every time you say it. How do you know it's not going to work here if we don't even try?

EDIT: I'm reminded of all the people who thought we could never get on the moon. "A man on the moon?! Preposterous! That'll never happen, don't even bother!" If we had followed their advice, we'd be so far behind technologically, the whole world would be a completely different place.

[Katchii]

Cool. So you're going to switch your registration to Republican and vote to fix the Republican Party, right?

This is certainly a take.

Because that's how you fix it. But doing that takes a vote away from the Democrats, and the Democrats can't afford to lose any votes. Not with how incompetent they are at running electoral campaigns.

Explain to me how putting an R next to your name takes away your right to vote for a Democrat.

Like I said: I exist in the real world. I understand the terrible situation the country is in, and I understand what the only option we have for moving forward is.

No you don't, you live in your fantasy LaLa land. None of what you're suggesting as an option to fix this makes sense.

We can talk about how all the GQP nutters belong in prison or buried in unmarked graves, but that doesn't actually do anything to progress towards improving things in the here and now. Who the fuck do you think would even hold accountable all those ghouls and traitors? Certainly, not the Republicans. Know how we have the issue with cops not reporting on and holding accountable other cops for the evil things they do?

Yeah. It's the same fucking thing.

Not all Republicans are GQP nutters. Plenty of the ones already in power are, I agree, but not all voters with an R next to their name are like that.

You want anything to be done about it? Then vote Democrats in. They are literally the only path forward to fixing any of this, because the Republicans will not.

Republicans can vote for Democrats except in the primary elections. Democrats can vote for Republicans.

Republicans can vote for people who aren't GQP nutters just as much as Democrats can.

They way you're speaking suggests you don't know that

[Endus]

You know, the more you argue against things that other people have tried and found success in, the more I think to myself, "We really should just try this stuff and see if anything sticks."

The whole 'that's just not going to work here' feels more and more hollow every time you say it. How do you know it's not going to work here if we don't even try?

EDIT: I'm reminded of all the people who thought we could never get on the moon. "A man on the moon?! Preposterous! That'll never happen, don't even bother!" If we had followed their advice, we'd be so far behind technologically, the whole world would be a completely different place.

Fundamentally, that kind of fatalism is not an argument that such legislation can't be passed into law, it's an argument that it shouldn't, but the one making that case either does not have a legitimate basis for arguing that on principle alone, or is actively opposed to the principles in question but doesn't want to come out and state their opposition cleanly.

It's particularly silly when gun control laws are, clearly, possible to pass into law. Even iteratively, one step at a time, another point they refuse to acknowledge. It's just a false position and it's presented as a cover more than as a legitimate take.

[Grinning Serpent]

Not all Republicans are GQP nutters. Plenty of the ones already in power are, I agree, but not all voters with an R next to their name are like that.

It doesn't matter. If they defend and protect GQP nutjobs or just plain corrupt grifters like McConnell, then they are no better than them. It's exactly the same as how there's no such thing as a good cop - protecting people doing evil acts means you are not a good person.

Republicans can vote for Democrats except in the primary elections. Democrats can vote for Republicans.

Republicans can vote for people who aren't GQP nutters just as much as Democrats can.

They way you're speaking suggests you don't know that

The primary elections are how you determine who moves forward to represent the party and its constituents. Primaries are extremely important. I am aware that you don't need to be registered to vote against a Republican in a general election, but you *do* need to be registered as a Republican if you want to toss a vote to the "not completely fucking insane" candidate to try and bolster their chances of winning against the newest Christofascist running for election.

I'm honestly not sure how you weren't able to piece this together without my help. You don't sound stupid to me.

[Elegiac]

Fundamentally, that kind of fatalism is not an argument that such legislation can't be passed into law, it's an argument that it shouldn't, but the one making that case either does not have a legitimate basis for arguing that on principle alone, or is actively opposed to the principles in question but doesn't want to come out and state their opposition cleanly.

It's particularly silly when gun control laws are, clearly, possible to pass into law. Even iteratively, one step at a time, another point they refuse to acknowledge. It's just a false position and it's presented as a cover more than as a legitimate take.

Pretty much. The poster in question has already admitted that their ideological position on guns is antithetical to gun control; it's much the same as a fervent capitalist being a climate change fatalist when their actual goal is blocking economic reform.

[Edge-]

https://www.vice.com/en/article/epvp...r-false-claims

Bad news for the "mental health" crowd, it wasn't a trans person that went on a shooting spree and ended up arrested at the end of an alley with an AR-style assault weapon, extra magazines, a police scanner, and a bulletproof vest.

It was another regular, boring, gun enthusiast. Just with an uncommon name like, "Kimbrady".

The suspect is a 40-year-old IT professional who lives in the neighborhood. On his now-deleted Facebook page, reviewed by VICE News, he posted repeatedly about his second amendment rights, his pro-gun stance, his support for former president Donald Trump, and his disdain for President Joe Biden.

So no giant red flags.

A review of the suspect’s Facebook account by VICE News suggests he was more concerned about stopping gun control legislation than about Black Lives Matter.

“This y’all president,” the suspect wrote under a video of Biden. “We said 2A defends our rights. Now its god save the queen while he attempts to take our arms,” referencing a recent gun safety speech the president gave which he ended by saying, “God save the queen.”In another post with a link to a video about Biden pushing gun control measures, he wrote: “I told you he wanted your rights. GOD SAVE THE QUEEN SAYS BIDEN.”

In another recent post on his Facebook account, the suspect shared a video of children using guns, and in what was his final activity on the site before he allegedly killed five people, he posted a link to a YouTube video from a gun company teasing the release of a new high-powered rifle.

The suspect was also posted repeatedly about Trump. In May, he shared a post entitled: “Who supports Trump in 2024,” which featured an American flag emblazoned with the words “God, Guns & Trump.”

In another post, the shooter wrote about doing “community patrols” and being sad at what he observed.

“During community patrols I have notice a big shame [sic]. So many of our 50 + 60 + 70 year old elders are influencing the youth negatively. They are without a doubt promoting and participating in robbing, prostitution, scamming, and murder. When one of their monsters is killed they cry foul. Boohoo, these pillars; these old ass people who should know better kill our youth.”

Dude fancied himself the neighborhood watch and thinks that grams and gramps are teaching the kids to be hookers rofl.

Anyways, here's another example of why a right to own a gun might not be such a good idea and why it is actually probably much better to make it a privilege and responsibility but oh well we just can't do that because too many Americans would rather murder other people than conceive of the notion that they might not be allowed to purchase more guns.

[Katchii]

It doesn't matter. If they defend and protect GQP nutjobs or just plain corrupt grifters like McConnell, then they are no better than them. It's exactly the same as how there's no such thing as a good cop - protecting people doing evil acts means you are not a good person.

There ARE good Republicans, there ARE good cops. Not going to pretend they aren't outnumbered, but they do exist.

The primary elections are how you determine who moves forward to represent the party and its constituents. Primaries are extremely important. I am aware that you don't need to be registered to vote against a Republican in a general election, but you *do* need to be registered as a Republican if you want to toss a vote to the "not completely fucking insane" candidate to try and bolster their chances of winning against the newest Christofascist running for election.

I'm honestly not sure how you weren't able to piece this together without my help. You don't sound stupid to me.

Yes, but if the Republican GQP whackjob candidates don't get elected election after election, they'll have to adjust accordingly. And those losses won't just be because of Democrats. I know MANY Republicans who voted Democrat the last few elections, they are perfectly capable of voting for a candidate and not for the party.

I don't disagree that the primaries are important but the primary elections are not the only elections.

[Grinning Serpent]

Pretty much. The poster in question has already admitted that their ideological position on guns is antithetical to gun control; it's much the same as a fervent capitalist being a climate change fatalist when their actual goal is blocking economic reform.

I have quite explicitly stated approval of numerous peer countries' methods of gun control. I have also pointed out that while they are good ideas and are effective in those countries, they would not function here for a variety of factors which are unique to the United States.

These factors can be changed, but to do so would require an enormous investment of time and political capital. Reducing gun violence would be a worthwhile investment of these resources. There are also methods available to us that would also reduce gun violence by a comparable or potentially greater degree, while also dramatically improving quality of life and general "happiness metrics" for all Americans, and these methods would be equally costly to pursue.

It is pretty obvious, then, that when resources are limited, there is an undeniably superior path to walk in the fight against gun violence. To argue otherwise is to be unwilling to accept or work against your own biases.

I've told you this repeatedly, and I really find your dishonesty and refusal to face reality to be pretty immature. Maybe you should just stay out of this thread if you can't hold yourself to engage in things as an adult.

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Anyways, here's another example of why a right to own a gun might not be such a good idea and why it is actually probably much better to make it a privilege and responsibility but oh well we just can't do that because too many Americans would rather murder other people than conceive of the notion that they might not be allowed to purchase more guns.

Yes. I think almost all of us are in agreement that 2A is outdated and should be done away with.

What's your plan on getting Democrats elected on a "repeal the 2A" platform? Or even just a milquetoast "commonsense gun control" platform? It hasn't worked out for them in the past few decades. What's your plan for making it successful?

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There ARE good Republicans, there ARE good cops. Not going to pretend they aren't outnumbered, but they do exist.

No. If you defend those who break their oaths and who commit crimes, you are not a good person. Period. There isn't an exception to this. It maybe means you are not a *bad* person, but you surely are not a good person.

All those Republicans saw Donald Trump (and not just him, but he was by far the most flagrant about it) violate his oath of office, violate national security standards, and all manner of presidential decorum (which is not a civil or criminal offense, but the vast majority of which would at least find to be in bad taste, given how the President is meant to represent our country abroad.) How many of them stepped forward to impeach him or otherwise counter his behaviors and actions? Oh, that's right - *NONE* of them did. All 195 of the present Republican representatives in the House voted nay. Republicans in various state legislatures and even local positions repeatedly emphasized support for Trump and condemnation of any attempts to hold him to task for his violations of his oath of office or potentially traitorous actions (treason is hard to prove, so he was charged on something less severe... but the gist was pretty clear of what the actual charges were.)

The Senate was not quite the same - 7 Republicans voted to convict Trump, but the remaining 43 held fast. It's worth noting that only one of those Republicans would be up for re-election in 2022, so it's possible that they did so only because they felt secure in being able to. That would be cowardice, fear of losing their position of power for doing what is right (and what is required of them by the oath they swear), but... whatever. Either way, it makes it pretty fucking difficult for you to claim that there's good Republicans. I see people that defend and protect a traitor and someone who flagrantly violates their oaths - those are not good people. And I'm not even talking about their own personal sins, of which there are man - only their failure to execute what should be one of the simplest duties they are there to uphold.

It's no better for cops. In fact, it's probably worse. ACAB is a thing for a reason. There are no good cops. Anyone that becomes a cop with good intentions, who tries to be a "TV cop", quickly finds out what happens to good people that become cops - they are ostracized, abandoned, bullied. They either die on the job when support was slow in coming, or they quit in disgust when they see all the corruption and brutality around them and nothing being done about it - and no ability on their part to influence it.

Yes, but if the Republican GQP whackjob candidates don't get elected election after election, they'll have to adjust accordingly. And those losses won't just be because of Democrats. I know MANY Republicans who voted Democrat the last few elections, they are perfectly capable of voting for a candidate and not for the party.

I don't disagree that the primaries are important but the primary elections are not the only elections.

Primaries are literally what determines the course of any political party in the US. It's why so much was made over the race between HRC and Sanders, or the primary that Biden eventually won. It's why the progressive propaganda machine (note that I'm using propaganda as a neutral term here, as literally all political campaigns and parties engage in it these days, it's endemic to the 24/7 news cycle and social media information-siloing) starts up any time there's a progressive candidate running against a "corporate Democrat" with a meaningful chance at winning.

If you win the primary but lose the general election, then your lessons learned are "improve my strategy against the other party." If you lose the primary, *that's* when you have to reconsider your policy plank and stated goals. If you won the primary, your voters have told you that your policies are good, that they will vote for you.

*Some* registered Republicans voted for Biden in 2020, but not a great deal, and even with those aisle-crossing voters, he still just only lightly defeated Trump. 2020 was essentially a referendum on American fascism, and 47% of voters thought that it sounded just fine, and that's *with* the "corporate Republican" Lincoln Project proselytizing to Republican voters that whole time (and you can tell that the GOP knows how to make good political ads, because they were all pretty fucking good.)

If you want to put American fascism to bed, it has to be defeated from within the party it's being hosted by. You have to get "not fucking fascists" Republicans elected in the primaries, because that's what sends the message of "this is unacceptable" to the party leaders. GOP leadership is (finally) abandoning Trump as the criminal cases proceed, because they recognize that they can no longer ride his parade float, but that doesn't mean American fascism is dead. There are still a lot of Republicans out there running on fascist values and goals. That won't be put to bed until those people can't even win primaries anymore, and that requires a registered Republican to vote against them.

[Katchii]

/SNIP

I'm done. You're not willing to even listen or entertain the idea that you may be wrong or that someone else may have a point. So there's no point in attempting to have a discussion with you.

[Kathandira]

I have quite explicitly stated approval of numerous peer countries' methods of gun control. I have also pointed out that while they are good ideas and are effective in those countries, they would not function here for a variety of factors which are unique to the United States.

These factors can be changed, but to do so would require an enormous investment of time and political capital. Reducing gun violence would be a worthwhile investment of these resources. There are also methods available to us that would also reduce gun violence by a comparable or potentially greater degree, while also dramatically improving quality of life and general "happiness metrics" for all Americans, and these methods would be equally costly to pursue.

I don't frequent this forum thread. So excuse me if this has been already presented.

How do you feel about the metric which demonstrates that a sizable amount of firearm related crime is performed with a stolen firearm? Presuming you acknowledge this, I offer this idea as a way to reduce firearm violence.

As a law, all firearms in the home MUST be kept in a secure safe. Regulations of installation must be followed. Such as the safe must be bolted to the floor of the room it is kept in. If your registered firearm is found to have been used in a crime, your house will be inspected to ensure it was being stored according to the law. In the event that it was taken off your person in a legal carry state, you must have reported the loss within 48 hours (Time frame open to negotiation).

If you did not secure it in the appropriate way, or if you did not report it stolen in time, you will be detained and potentially charged as part of the crime that took place.