Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Deleted]

You have 310 million population and 14,612 murders. About 10 000 of these were done with firearms, which means that with a severe access to firearms you will have a similar murder rate to Western Europe.
What is the problem with this again ?

Guns probably increase the impact of existing problems (to a degree), they are not the problems themselves. On the flipside, guns in civilian hands are also used against crime, so the guns' effect on crime is probably neutral. The USA has a lot of issues Western Europe doesn't have. If you took, say Germany, and made guns as accessible as in the US, I doubt the murder rate would go up by much, if at all.

[Roxinius]

You're talking about Americans. If shoes were the only thing we had to kill each other with, then all 14.6 thousand of those murders would have been committed with shoes. Guns are just the most convenient thing available.

people dont seem to get the fact if someone wants to kill someone else they will do it by any means they can

[haxartus]

On the flipside, guns in civilian hands are also used against crime, so the guns' effect on crime is probably neutral.

Pulling a gun in a robbery has a bigger potential to get you killed than just not having a gun. Guns escalate situations.

[Roxinius]

Pulling a gun in a robbery has a bigger potential to get you killed than just not having a gun. Guns escalate situations.

lol you really should stop you're only making it worse now the only time where its makes it worse is if you dont have the balls to pull the trigger

[haxartus]

lol you really should stop you're only making it worse now the only time where its makes it worse is if you dont have the balls to pull the trigger

In reality and not in the movies, very few criminals want to kill you just like that. But if you pull a gun you are escalating the situation into a shooting with an unknown outcome. It's 50/50 who lives and who dies.

[Roxinius]

In reality and not in the movies, very few criminals want to kill you just like that. But if you pull a gun you are escalating the situation into a shooting with an unknown outcome. It's 50/50 who lives and who dies.

if they are despirate enough to try and rob you how low will they go imo i'd rather have the gun and take my chances

[Deleted]

Pulling a gun in a robbery has a bigger potential to get you killed than just not having a gun. Guns escalate situations.

Depends a lot on the situation. During an aggravated assault or an attempted murder, there's not much left to escalate. Guns also have the potential to stop a situation without even firing a shot (as far as I know, that's what happens most of the time).

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people dont seem to get the fact if someone wants to kill someone else they will do it by any means they can

Depends on the individual.

[haxartus]

if they are despirate enough to try and rob you how low will they go imo i'd rather have the gun and take my chances

What you want to do and what is needed to be done in a large scale are two completely different things. Lowering the amount of guns in circulation lowers the murder rate. Period. I've read on this significantly more on this than you, and I've posted evidence of this in similar threads, and when people feel that their logic and reasoning don't work, they ignore it. You can't even begin to imagine how big of a gun problem you have because you've never seen anything different in your life.

[Kellhound]

Pulling a gun in a robbery has a bigger potential to get you killed than just not having a gun. Guns escalate situations.

Studies have actually show you are more likely to get injured not fighting back than fighting back. Many (perhaps most) criminals value their skin more than your stuff.

[Roxinius]

What you want to do and what is needed to be done in a large scale are two completely different things. Lowering the amount of guns in circulation lowers the murder rate. Period. I've read on this significantly more on this than you, and I've posted evidence of this in similar threads, and when people feel that their logic and reasoning don't work, they ignore it. You can't even begin to imagine how big of a gun problem you have because you've never seen anything different in your life.

rofl can take a look at the violent crime rate in Australia after the gun ban haha again just stop you look like a fool

[Deleted]

Studies have actually show you are more likely to get injured not fighting back than fighting back. Many (perhaps most) criminals value their skin more than your stuff.

I would like to see those studies.

[Deleted]

people dont seem to get the fact if someone wants to kill someone else they will do it by any means they can

People commonly want to kill other people now ? And we should make it easier for them when they do ?

[Adamas102]

What people never take into account is that gun prevalence greatly increases the suicide rate. In fact, there are more firearm related suicides in the US each year than total murders (both firearm and non-firearm related). More than half of successful suicides involve a firearm. Why? Because of accessibility and ease of use. Notice the word "successful" there. Most people don't attempt suicide with a gun, but the ones that do are almost always successful. No cry for help, no second chance. If firearms were less accessible, you can be assured that fewer people would succeed in killing themselves.

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yeah its not like our crime rate has gone down pretty far since gun ownership has gone up

Funny how gun ownership has actually gone down over the last few decades when considering the percentage of American households owning guns. People who already own guns compensate by just buying more for themselves. Are you going to argue that crime has dropped because criminals are more afraid of a guy with 5 guns than they are of a guy with 4 guns?

[haxartus]

rofl can take a look at the violent crime rate in Australia after the gun ban haha again just stop you look like a fool

Australia has 5 times lower murder rate than your national average. But your national average is not very accurate, since it's much worse in big cities, unlike other countries where the national average is usually the same everywhere.
The city of Sydney has 50 times lower murder rate than the city of Detroit. Yes, 50 times. You are 5000% more likely to be killed in Detroit than in Sydney.

[rhandric]

Australia has 5 times lower murder rate than your national average. But your national average is not very accurate, since it's much worse in big cities, unlike other countries where the national average is usually the same everywhere.
The city of Sydney has 50 times lower murder rate than the city of Detroit. Yes, 50 times. You are 5000% more likely to be killed in Detroit than in Sydney.

And that has less to do with guns than it has to do with the culture.

[Kellhound]

What people never take into account is that gun prevalence greatly increases the suicide rate. In fact, there are more firearm related suicides in the US each year than total murders (both firearm and non-firearm related). More than half of successful suicides involve a firearm. Why? Because of accessibility and ease of use. Notice the word "successful" there. Most people don't attempt suicide with a gun, but the ones that do are almost always successful. No cry for help, no second chance. If firearms were less accessible, you can be assured that fewer people would succeed in killing themselves.

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Funny how gun ownership has actually gone down over the last few decades when considering the percentage of American households owning guns. People who already own guns compensate by just buying more for themselves. Are you going to argue that crime has dropped because criminals are more afraid of a guy with 5 guns than they are of a guy with 4 guns?

One can also ask if the choice of a firearm is because they actually intend to die, and not call attention to themselves for help.

[PhaelixWW]

People commonly want to kill other people now ? And we should make it easier for them when they do ?

Strawman, here.

Nobody said that people commonly want to kill other people.

And nobody's intent is to make it easier for criminals to get firearms. Indeed, by making it easier (or at least not letting it get more difficult) for law-abiding people to get a firearm, the firearm-use matrix would tend to slant more towards defense than assault.

What people never take into account is that gun prevalence greatly increases the suicide rate. In fact, there are more firearm related suicides in the US each year than total murders (both firearm and non-firearm related).

The numbers don't quite mean what you're making them out to mean, here. The disparity between suicides and crime rates are a factor of the great decline in crime rates.

In fact, despite the massively increased prevalence of firearms in this country, the actual suicide rate (for all types of suicides) has remained fairly consistent for about 70 years.




Suicide rates have more to do with economic factors than anything else, which is why we've seen a moderate rise in suicides coinciding with the recent recession, and why the last big spike in suicides occurred during the Great Depression.

None of that has anything to do with an increase in the number of firearms.

If firearms were less accessible, you can be assured that fewer people would succeed in killing themselves.

Defensive uses of firearms way, way, way outnumbers suicides. I'd rather not make several people more likely to be murdered just to potentially give an attempted suicide victim a second chance after failing at an act of self-harm.

Keep in mind that guns don't cause suicidal thoughts. There's a lot more effective ways to combat suicide than by banning firearms.

Funny how gun ownership has actually gone down over the last few decades when considering the percentage of American households owning guns. People who already own guns compensate by just buying more for themselves.

The debate of whether or not gun ownership is really in a big decline has been contested here ITT for a while, so don't take it as proven.

Are you going to argue that crime has dropped because criminals are more afraid of a guy with 5 guns than they are of a guy with 4 guns?

No. Crime rates are down mostly because of other prevailing factors that have more to do with causing crime than the mere prevalence of firearms. That's not to say that an increased number of legal CCW permits might not help bring it down even more.

[Deleted]

What people never take into account is that gun prevalence greatly increases the suicide rate. In fact, there are more firearm related suicides in the US each year than total murders (both firearm and non-firearm related). More than half of successful suicides involve a firearm. Why? Because of accessibility and ease of use. Notice the word "successful" there. Most people don't attempt suicide with a gun, but the ones that do are almost always successful. No cry for help, no second chance. If firearms were less accessible, you can be assured that fewer people would succeed in killing themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...s_in_Australia
I wouldn't be so sure of that.

[Daelak]

You're talking about Americans. If shoes were the only thing we had to kill each other with, then all 14.6 thousand of those murders would have been committed with shoes. Guns are just the most convenient thing available.

That's ludicrous. The amount of physical and mental trauma a close-range killing with a knife or a blunt object does to a human being is far more devastating than shooting a firearm at mid-range. If there were no guns, there would be less suicides and homicides.

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In fact, despite the massively increased prevalence of firearms in this country, the actual suicide rate (for all types of suicides) has remained fairly consistent for about 70 years.

Suicide rates have more to do with economic factors than anything else, which is why we've seen a moderate rise in suicides coinciding with the recent recession, and why the last big spike in suicides occurred during the Great Depression.

None of that has anything to do with an increase in the number of firearms.

Suicide and firearm ownership have a positive correlation during recessions. I talked with another about this a couple week with scivfnimr. Gun purchases and ownership rise during recessions, and so do suicides.

[Roxinius]

Australia has 5 times lower murder rate than your national average. But your national average is not very accurate, since it's much worse in big cities, unlike other countries where the national average is usually the same everywhere.
The city of Sydney has 50 times lower murder rate than the city of Detroit. Yes, 50 times. You are 5000% more likely to be killed in Detroit than in Sydney.

didnt realize murder was the only thing categorized as a violent crime

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People commonly want to kill other people now ? And we should make it easier for them when they do ?

maybe you should try reading a little better cause thats not what i said at all