Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Deadvolcanoes]

When someone suggests that as much as 40% of gun sales go through no checks, the onus is upon them to provide proof.

And so they tried, revealing the statement was a bunch of horseshit.

I'm not sure you followed that discussion correctly.

I stated that private citizens are allowed to rent tables at gun shows to sell their weapons, Phaelix claimed they were in the vast minority, and I asked for numbers to back up the claim, even though I'm inclined to agree with him.

I'm not sure why you're bringing up the bogus "40% claim." It wasn't mentioned.

Exactly what would you suggest happen to those firearms?

They should be seized by the ATF. I mean if someone breaks the law, we shouldn't reward them.

[Dillon]

I'm not sure you followed that discussion correctly.

I stated that private citizens are allowed to rent tables at gun shows to sell their weapons, Phaelix claimed they were in the vast minority, and I asked for numbers to back up the claim, even though I'm inclined to agree with him.

I'm not sure why you're bringing up the bogus "40% claim." It wasn't mentioned.

I was implying that if someone were to suggest that private citizens are exchanging firearms without background checks, that it is upon the maker of the claim to show that it is a problem and to what extent.

They should be seized by the ATF. I mean if someone breaks the law, we shouldn't reward them.

Maybe if someone is doing all sorts of illegal shit, especially concerning firearms, this should happen, but I wouldn't be so quick to suggest that it's a simple matter to have the government assume stewardship over someone's stuff, especially a store full of firearms.

[Roxinius]

I'm not one for posting youtube videos, but I found this one to be interesting.

what the anti-gun people fear most someone presenting facts to counter their points they cant handle it so they put a stop to it

[smelltheglove]

Maybe if someone is doing all sorts of illegal shit, especially concerning firearms, this should happen, but I wouldn't be so quick to suggest that it's a simple matter to have the government assume stewardship over someone's stuff, especially a store full of firearms.

well, he was talking about licensed dealers, so yeah, losing their license should mean losing possession (but not necessarily ownership) of their inventory. we dont let doctors keep their drugs or scrip pads if they lose their license. and no decent businessman mixes personal with business, so personal weapons should remain exempt - provided they werent stupid and have some kind of proof that said weapons were personal and not inventory

[mvaliz]

what the anti-gun people fear most someone presenting facts to counter their points they cant handle it so they put a stop to it

...he said the shooting deaths of schoolchildren at the Connecticut school was caused by gun control laws, not by somebody with a gun.

I guess his solution was to have guns in gradeschools and arm the 6-year-olds?

You're right... I really don't think I could handle that "fact" either.

[Todgruppe]

...he said the shooting deaths of schoolchildren at the Connecticut school was caused by gun control laws, not by somebody with a gun.

I guess his solution was to have guns in gradeschools and arm the 6-year-olds?

You're right... I really don't think I could handle that "fact" either.

It's been mentioned..? 100 times? They target "gun-free" zones on purpose, when met with resistance they blow their brains out or suicide by cop.

[Roxinius]

...he said the shooting deaths of schoolchildren at the Connecticut school was caused by gun control laws, not by somebody with a gun.

I guess his solution was to have guns in gradeschools and arm the 6-year-olds?

You're right... I really don't think I could handle that "fact" either.

is it that hard to understand gun free zones are targets they might as well have a huge one painted on the building an armed guard could have made the difference anything proposed by gun control advocates would not have

[mvaliz]

It's been mentioned..? 100 times? They target "gun-free" zones on purpose, when met with resistance they blow their brains out or suicide by cop.

...exactly my point. Take the guns away and that's not a problem.

The other solution I assume you're suggesting is too horrible to even contemplate. Are you wanting to make us into some 3rd world nation where we keep/store weapons of death around 6 year olds? What do you think that does to their psyche? What do you think the BULLIES would go after first!?! Or even the VICTIM of bullies!?!

[Grizzly Willy]

...exactly my point. Take the guns away and that's not a problem.

The other solution I assume you're suggesting is too horrible to even contemplate. Are you wanting to make us into some 3rd world nation where we keep/store weapons of death around 6 year olds? What do you think that does to their psyche? What do you think the BULLIES would go after first!?! Or even the VICTIM of bullies!?!

Well, no, the reasonable solution would be to have a form of resistance on campus, most likely a guard.

[mvaliz]

is it that hard to understand gun free zones are targets they might as well have a huge one painted on the building an armed guard could have made the difference anything proposed by gun control advocates would not have

...and you cannot see how that would lead to MORE gun violence in schools? Seriously? 2 school kids could nab that gun from your armed guard...

And, sorry, Australia proves that Gun Control makes a TON of difference... TON of difference in saving lives. Yes, it doesn't prevent all crime... but homicide rates via guns dropped over 60% all over the country for over 20 years... That's the most amazing statistic I've ever seen compared to any individual state that allows carry/conceal in the USA that can offer up in regards to gun homicides and death.

[Grizzly Willy]

...and you cannot see how that would lead to MORE gun violence in schools? Seriously? 2 school kids could nab that gun from your armed guard...

And, sorry, Australia proves that Gun Control makes a TON of difference... TON of difference in saving lives. Yes, it doesn't prevent all crime... but homicide rates via guns dropped over 60% all over the country for over 20 years... That's the most amazing statistic I've ever seen compared to any individual state that allows carry/conceal in the USA that can offer up in regards to gun homicides and death.

Are we to assume that guards are that inept?

[mvaliz]

Well, no, the reasonable solution would be to have a form of resistance on campus, most likely a guard.

...reasonable solution? o_O

...you've never seen bullying in Schools, have you? You've never been the victim nor the bully before - have you?

And secondly... if there's a guard present, do you think the gunman would target FIRST?

Now, you got a dead guard - and a gunman with 2 guns and extra ammo. Congratulations. Brilliant job...

[Grizzly Willy]

...reasonable solution? o_O

...you've never seen bullying in Schools, have you? You've never been the victim nor the bully before - have you?

And secondly... if there's a guard present, do you think the gunman would target FIRST?

Now, you got a dead guard - and a gunman with 2 guns and extra ammo. Congratulations. Brilliant job...

You act like the guard would be brain dead.

[Roxinius]

You act like the guard would be brain dead.

thats what i was thinking yeah not like the guy would be trained or anything

[Todgruppe]

...exactly my point. Take the guns away and that's not a problem.

The other solution I assume you're suggesting is too horrible to even contemplate. Are you wanting to make us into some 3rd world nation where we keep/store weapons of death around 6 year olds? What do you think that does to their psyche? What do you think the BULLIES would go after first!?! Or even the VICTIM of bullies!?!

Your pysch issues are immense bud. Check that out, so much misplaced rage. Bullies are only bullies so long as someone isn't higher on the food chain, also they are usually a result of shit home situations, because SHOCK they have misplaced rage too!!!!

[Deleted]

...and you cannot see how that would lead to MORE gun violence in schools? Seriously? 2 school kids could nab that gun from your armed guard...

And, sorry, Australia proves that Gun Control makes a TON of difference... TON of difference in saving lives. Yes, it doesn't prevent all crime... but homicide rates via guns dropped over 60% all over the country for over 20 years... That's the most amazing statistic I've ever seen compared to any individual state that allows carry/conceal in the USA that can offer up in regards to gun homicides and death.

And homicide via guns halved in the US over the same period of time, your point ?

[Kasierith]

Well, no, the reasonable solution would be to have a form of resistance on campus, most likely a guard.

And where will the salaries come from? Or the rooms to secure firepower and such so that the guard cannot be jumped / children can't take weapons? I assume that for larger schools multiple would be needed. You need to add a slightly increased amount to prevent corruption. You'd need special training for these guards to certify that they are safe to wield firearms around children, along with background checks and the like for every one of them. The education system is suffering financially as it is; adding guards is an economically unfeasible solution.

[Deleted]

And where will the salaries come from? Or the rooms to secure firepower and such so that the guard cannot be jumped / children can't take weapons? I assume that for larger schools multiple would be needed. You need to add a slightly increased amount to prevent corruption. You'd need special training for these guards to certify that they are safe to wield firearms around children, along with background checks and the like for every one of them. The education system is suffering financially as it is; adding guards is an economically unfeasible solution.

Combating crime costs money, no matter how you do it.

[Grizzly Willy]

And where will the salaries come from? Or the rooms to secure firepower and such so that the guard cannot be jumped / children can't take weapons? I assume that for larger schools multiple would be needed. You need to add a slightly increased amount to prevent corruption. You'd need special training for these guards to certify that they are safe to wield firearms around children, along with background checks and the like for every one of them. The education system is suffering financially as it is; adding guards is an economically unfeasible solution.

These are valid concerns. I'll concede here; I don't have any proper rebuttal, and I do agree that there are issues that I hadn't thought of.

[Svifnymr]

And where will the salaries come from? Or the rooms to secure firepower and such so that the guard cannot be jumped / children can't take weapons? I assume that for larger schools multiple would be needed. You need to add a slightly increased amount to prevent corruption. You'd need special training for these guards to certify that they are safe to wield firearms around children, along with background checks and the like for every one of them. The education system is suffering financially as it is; adding guards is an economically unfeasible solution.

I'm 40 now. When I was in MIDDLE SCHOOL, 25+ years ago, we had police/ resource officers. Urban areas, it's very common to have such.

So no, I'm not saying it's a solution for everywhere, but for decades now schools have HAD armed officers in the school, so it's not something "new" that we're making up. Broadening it to armed security guards rather than police isn't a huge deal.

---------- Post added 2013-05-18 at 05:03 PM ----------

And, sorry, Australia proves that Gun Control makes a TON of difference... TON of difference in saving lives. Yes, it doesn't prevent all crime... but homicide rates via guns dropped over 60% all over the country for over 20 years... That's the most amazing statistic I've ever seen compared to any individual state that allows carry/conceal in the USA that can offer up in regards to gun homicides and death.

Since Australia's ban, their homicides have gone down 40%, compared to the USA going down 50%, Britain spiked real high and came back down, so overall they've gone down like 30-35% I believe.

Granted that's homicides, not "homicide rates via guns", but isn't that a better metric?

It is a fact that our murder rate is X times higher than either country, it was before their ban and it is after their ban.

It is also true that since the Australia ban, they have not had a mass shooting. They averaged maybe 1 every ten years, so in theory it has "prevented" two. It has not stopped mass "murders" though, since there have been a few arsons and such.

---------- Post added 2013-05-18 at 05:09 PM ----------

58% want to ban semi-automatic weapons. I think of the venerable Ruger 10/22. Which btw is even legal in Great Britain as I understand it.

AFAIK, Britain has AR15's and Ruger 10-22's, but they're single shot/ manual, not semi auto. Not sure currently, since the brit I knew was 10 years ago, but he had an AR15 with no gas tube for instance.

55% want to ban Assault weapons. I think of an AR-15. These are semi-automatic weapons with "dangerous" features.

To summarize for those not fluent in firearms, more people should want to ban assault weapons, because assault weapons are the "evil" versions of semi automatic firearms. IT DOESN"T MAKE SENSE.

The polling questions must have been poorly phrased, or conducted on a brain dead mass of American wasteland somewhere. It is a shame that these polling outfits don't provide a copy of their actual questionnaire.

The Poll didn't work that way. They asked 1500 people from two sets of questions, Form 1 and Form2. I'm not clear on how they determined which "Form" each user was questioned from, and also not clear if each of the 750 on each form got multiple questions or just two from each Form.

So, the "ban all semi-auto" and the "ban all assault rifles" were not asked of the same people (they're on different "forms"). 58% of the people asked about banning semi-auto's said yes. I don't know if that was 58% of 750 or a smaller subset of the 750.