Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Mayhem]

If cops didn't have guns we wouldn't have to worry about it.

so you´re now against guns? hu

[TwoNineMarine]

so you´re now against guns? hu

No.

10's of thousands of cops carry guns every day. Very few of them use those weapons illegally.

10's of thousands of civilians carry guns every day. Very few of them use those weapons illegally.

Yet you don't hear anyone raging to disarm the police.

[lockedout]

What do you do when this happens?
http://abc11.com/archive/9535710/

[obdigore]

No.

10's of thousands of cops carry guns every day. Very few of them use those weapons illegally.

10's of thousands of civilians carry guns every day. Very few of them use those weapons illegally.

Yet you don't hear anyone raging to disarm the police.

I hear it all the time. I would even suggest that if the populace were disarmed, police could also be disarmed.

[lockedout]

so you´re now against guns? hu

I am for the right of the people to be able to choose whether they want to arm themselves.

[Mayhem]

I am for the right of the people to be able to choose whether they want to arm themselves.

i think that´s the only part we agree on

[TwoNineMarine]

I hear it all the time. I would even suggest that if the populace were disarmed, police could also be disarmed.

In a perfect world there would be no need for weapons of any kind.

But there are those of us who know that bad people do exist. Hell some of us have stood face to face with some of those people. It's because of that that we choose to be armed.

I am certainly not advocating that everyone be armed. But I think that choice should exist for every non-felon American.

[Mayhem]

1520 pages and people still don't understand that people have a right to protect themselves. This is the slave mentality at work to the point that people are brainwashed into believing that they themselves are children and the state is the adult. And children should never own guns.

1520 pages and you weren´t able to read a few different opinions and just jumped in and made a fool of yourself, that´s a feat

[TwoNineMarine]

1520 pages and you weren´t able to read a few different opinions and just jumped in and made a fool of yourself, that´s a feat

You know what he said is true.

People honestly believe what he said. It's scary.

[Mayhem]

You know what he said is true.

People honestly believe what he said. It's scary.

you know there are morons out there, but jumping in on a thread without reading anything about the oppinions from the posters is just stupid

find me one of the so called anti-gun crowd that want´s to ban guns and you have one anti-gunner on your side protecting your right still insisting on better regulations

[lockedout]

Do you honestly expect me to read through 1520 page before making a comment? I gave my opinion based on what I've seen.

I'm an American. My Government ships guns to Mexico and arms the cartel. And the guy behind that, Fast and Furious, is the highest ranking law enforcement official in the nation. And you honestly believe Americans are going to give up their guns to such corruption?

Well at least he didn't lie to congress about it.

[TITAN308]

[Eroginous]

well as a member of federal law enforcement who recently got my pistol qualification (SIG SAUER P229 DAK for the curious)...

i still don't think civilians should have weapons, or if they do they should be held equally responsible when it comes to training of A), weapons handling, and B) application of deadly force in the law.

Couple reasons I disagree with this:

1. Police (law enforcement in general) are paid to protect and serve their communities. They are trained to go above and beyond the call of duty, and as such they are held to a much higher standard than normal civilians. While police officers are people too, capable of making the same mistakes to the same detriment of society, they are hand-picked after rigorous testing of both ability and character in order to facilitate the role of upholding the law.

2. When something happens and you need police assistance, you don't call Bob the Civilian to come with his firearm and deal with the situation. You call the police because they are experienced and trained to deal with many situations the normal guy isn't prepared to handle. Just having a gun does not give you the ability to diffuse potentially hostile situations or the knowledge to deal with an emergency.

3. We have the right to bear arms because the common man is supposed to be what balances the power of government. It's not supposed to be heavily armed police, even heavier armed military (but not by much these days), and a totally unarmed general public who have no choice but to be subservient to whatever whims the government/law enforcement decide to subject us to. I'm not trying to say that we're supposed to have this armed uprising against the evil bad government, but how else do you ensure the people have the power? Pray that the government limits itself? Just using a common example of too much power, we have the internet serving as the backbone of civilization right now. It relays all our information and gives us the ability to synchronize the entire world with current events. If there's a hurricane that wipes out a bunch of people, we don't have to wait for months before we hear about it through word of mouth by sailors on trade ships (if we even hear about it at all).

At the same time, we have gigantic corporations controlling the majority of the internet infrastructure, not only refusing to upgrade the last mile so people can take advantage of the speeds they're supposed to have, but also in talks with the FCC to try and limit our internet even more. It's painfully obvious that Time Warner, Comcast, and Tom Wheeler don't give two shits about net neutrality or giving people the internet they've already paid for. Just like many other facets of our culture, money rules everything. If someone can make a million dollars doing something unethical (or even illegal), they're going to do it for as long as they can get away with it. What makes you think the powerful lobbies that turn people billionaires are going to make sure the little people have a voice?

As stupid and insane as it sounds, sometimes the sound of a gun shot is the only effective voice people are able to hear. It's why we had the civil war, the American revolution, and a dozen other conflicts on American soil, all of which lead to the country we have today. I don't think anyone in their right mind wants to set aside the luxuries they've been afforded by modernity, but I also don't think anyone wants to see our country become the next Democratic Republic of Congo.

[Mayhem]

As stupid and insane as it sounds, sometimes the sound of a gun shot is the only effective voice people are able to hear.

well can´t argue with that

the rest is just pure inconsistency

police are trained and hand picked so they should have a higher standard
just owning a gun doesn´t make you deal with hostile situations the right why
the right to bear arms is to balance out the power

followed by

freedoms at danger guns will help internet providers are bad, big corporations are in control

you do know this makes you sound like you´re going to hold some people at gunpoint to make things right?

a dozen other conflicts on american soil? that´s a new one

[Ghostpanther]

No.

10's of thousands of cops carry guns every day. Very few of them use those weapons illegally.

10's of thousands of civilians carry guns every day. Very few of them use those weapons illegally.

Yet you don't hear anyone raging to disarm the police.

Good point. But maybe they feel like what works in say...the UK...will work here. Do the cops walking the beat in UK still not carry guns? Too many times references to other countries are mentioned as having a nice gun control methods, yet they forget that country may not be faced with the same culture issues we have here in the US. Even here in the States, there can be a big difference between culture issues from one to another.

[TZucchini]

Here you go, you must have missed it when I posted it 70 or so pages ago when you brought up the Philadelphia study before.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2866589/

No, I didn't miss it. I acknowledged it. I'm surprised no one else brought it up, considering it's on the actual Philadelphia study itself.

But like I've said. Even if we consider the flaws in that specific study to completely invalidate the conclusion (something the response did not mention), there are truckloads of other studies (1, 2, 3) that all come to the same conclusion. Possession of a firearm makes you more likely to be killed or injured, than someone who does not own a firearm.

By purchasing a firearm, I'm literally increasing my risk of being violently killed. I thought guns were supposed to make us safe.

[TITAN308]

- - - Updated - - -

No, I didn't miss it. I acknowledged it. I'm surprised no one else brought it up, considering it's on the actual Philadelphia study itself.

But like I've said. Even if we consider the flaws in that specific study to completely invalidate the conclusion (something the response did not mention), there are truckloads of other studies (1, 2, 3) that all come to the same conclusion. Possession of a firearm makes you more likely to be killed or injured, than someone who does not own a firearm.

By purchasing a firearm, I'm literally increasing my risk of being violently killed. I thought guns were supposed to make us safe.

And driving a car increases your risk of being killed.

And drinking booze...

And smoking...

And being overweight...

And bungee jumping...

And sky diving...

And rock climbing...

And walking outside your home...

[bergmann620]

thats well and good if someone practices on their own time.. but they aren't required to. nor are they required to have knowledge of when its acceptable to use their weapon before they buy it.

Most states require training and certification before allowing concealed carry.

and there's plenty of unjustified shootings where the shooter claimed "self defense" and got off scott free.

Do you want to compare rates? I've got to imagine qualified immunity and the whole 'Blue Wall' are pretty significant advantages... LEO's are less likely to even see the inside of a courtroom.

if there were less civilians carrying then i think there would be a lot more scrutiny on law enforcement who use deadly force. as it is, well... "i thought he had a gun" is perfectly valid.

One doesn't logically follow the other. "I thought he had a gun" stops being valid when the 'perpetrator' is on their knees with their hands behind their head... Or, when you're shooting people at the wrong house because of a clerical error...

i just think its hilarious that the average civilian can go and play cowboy with barely any requirements whereas we have to get trained and at least be able to shoot accurately in order to carry. seems awfully backwards.

I think it's fucking terrifying that you think that. It's backwards that someone that is employed to carry a gun has to be trained? It's not like your average LEO with their ~25% pistol accuracy is a fucking sharpshooter to begin with.

[TZucchini]

1. Police (law enforcement in general) are paid to protect and serve their communities.

Police are paid to enforce the law. That's it. It's not their duty to protect and serve their communities.

We have the right to bear arms because the common man is supposed to be what balances the power of government.

Source for this claim?

It's not supposed to be heavily armed police, even heavier armed military

And for this one?

how else do you ensure the people have the power?

As stupid and insane as it sounds, sometimes the sound of a gun shot is the only effective voice people are able to hear.

I absolutely agree with you here. That does sound insane.

[TITAN308]

Every LEO I have met have qualified with their firearm only when required.

Which generally for most departments around the US is once, maybe twice a year.

I've been to the local range and watching some of them shoot. You would think they were firing a shotgun at the target with the holes no where resembling any sort of groupings.