Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[TwoNineMarine]

snip

I understand the point you were trying to make.

I was specifically addressing the point you made about how perhaps other people are ok with how the other issues were being treated. I asked how can they be ok with how they are being treated when many many more people are dying from those. How could you be ok with that?

If you say you aren't why not focus your attention on those problems versus on a 'problem' that kills 11,000 people a year in a country with 300+ million people.

[TZucchini]

States with Weak Gun Laws and Higher Gun Ownership Lead Nation in Gun Deaths, New Data for 2013 Confirms.

The VPC measured 3 raw variables: 1)Gun ownership rate, 2) Gun death rate and 3) Strength of gun violence prevention laws. They found that states with a high ownership rates and weak laws also have the highest gun death rate. The inverse was also true.

Does this mean that low ownership and tough laws cause a lower gun death rate? No. But these findings are interesting, and more research should be performed.

[Deleted]

How can you handwave that the correlation is so strong that its hard to deny causation.

I mean 400% the rate of dead people cant be explained with: "People in alaska are more irresponsible".

[TZucchini]

How can you handwave that the correlation is so strong that its hard to deny causation.

I mean 400% the rate of dead people cant be explained with: "People in alaska are more irresponsible".

I'm not handwaving. I believe it's a rather significant finding. But we can't determine causation through that correlation alone. As strong as it may be. There's many factors that go into firearm violence, including access and laws.

[Deleted]

There's many factors that go into firearm violence, including access and laws.

You cant shoot people with non available guns its a silly notion.

[TZucchini]

You cant shoot people with non available guns its a silly notion.

Correlation of raw data cannot determine causation. It may strongly suggest causation, but it doesn't determine it. It's just a caveat.

[lockedout]

States with Weak Gun Laws and Higher Gun Ownership Lead Nation in Gun Deaths, New Data for 2013 Confirms.

The VPC measured 3 raw variables: 1)Gun ownership rate, 2) Gun death rate and 3) Strength of gun violence prevention laws. They found that states with a high ownership rates and weak laws also have the highest gun death rate. The inverse was also true.

Does this mean that low ownership and tough laws cause a lower gun death rate? No. But these findings are interesting, and more research should be performed.

The number 1 state in your link is Alaska, what a shit study.

[TZucchini]

The number 1 state in your link is Alaska, what a shit study.

Alaska is a state, sooooo.....

[js3915]

Id would be for gun control only after someone outlines how to effectively get guns out of the hands of all criminals. Once that is done gun control is fine until then not giving up something that will protect my life.. And saying something is illegal wont stop a criminal. Bank robbing is illegal yet people still do it.

[TZucchini]

Once that is done gun control is fine until then not giving up something that will protect my life.

Gun control does not require you to give up your firearms.

[Tinykong]

The VPC defined states with “weak” gun violence prevention laws as those that add little or nothing to federal law and have permissive laws governing the open or concealed carrying of firearms in public. States with “strong” gun violence prevention laws were defined as those that add significant state regulation that is absent from federal law, such as restricting access to particularly hazardous and deadly types of firearms (for example, assault weapons), setting minimum safety standards for firearms and/or requiring a permit to purchase a firearm, and restricting the open and concealed carrying of firearms in public.

lols.

What percentage of firearm violence is committed by people who have a permit to carry?

[TZucchini]

lols.

What percentage of firearm violence is committed by people who have a permit to carry?

How is that relevant to the studies findings?

[Tinykong]

How is that relevant to the studies findings?

The entire premise of the study is bullshit if the criteria for a state being "weak" on gun violence is not having stricter than Federal laws and allowing open carry.

Without showing that open carry causes crime, they are basically just making up the criteria of "weak" on gun violence to fit the statistics.

[Mayhem]

Makes no difference if they are intentional or not. The amount of suffering and costs in medical and grieving of families with some causes are worse than gun deaths. Which the gun control crowd do not like to speak of at all when it comes to gun control measures. Except when it supports their stance.

What do you mean it makes no difference, you can´t just take numbers and compare them without taking into consideration how they orriginated.

You can´t treat accidents like killings.

I mean, sure we can talk about all the other causes for death, but what have they to do with firearm related deaths, and how would that not derail the conversation about gun control?

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I understand the point you were trying to make.

I was specifically addressing the point you made about how perhaps other people are ok with how the other issues were being treated. I asked how can they be ok with how they are being treated when many many more people are dying from those. How could you be ok with that?

If you say you aren't why not focus your attention on those problems versus on a 'problem' that kills 11,000 people a year in a country with 300+ million people.

Because this is a thread about gun control, if you want to discuss other topics i´ll join you, depending on the issue, i don´t know what´s so hard about this to understand.

and just for the record, i think cigarettes should be illegal as they bring little to no good to the life of people, trying to quit btw.

[TZucchini]

The entire premise of the study is bullshit if the criteria for a state being "weak" on gun violence is not having stricter than Federal laws and allowing open carry.

Without showing that open carry causes crime, they are basically just making up the criteria of "weak" on gun violence to fit the statistics.

You're not making sense. They're attempting the measure the restrictiveness of each states firearm laws. Whether or not open carry causes crime has no bearing on whether or not it can be considered a restrictive law.

[Tinykong]

You're not making sense. They're attempting the measure the restrictiveness of each states firearm laws. Whether or not open carry causes crime has no bearing on whether or not it can be considered a restrictive law.

They made up their own criteria for what constitutes a state that is "weak on firearm violence." According to the link, a lack of laws in addition to Federal law and permissive open carry makes a state "weak" on firearm violence.

That's bullshit. Without showing that the permissiveness of open carry increases crime, all they are doing is making up criteria to fit the statistics.

[TZucchini]

They made up their own criteria for what constitutes a state that is "weak on firearm violence." According to the link, a lack of laws in addition to Federal law and permissive open carry makes a state "weak" on firearm violence.

That's bullshit. Without showing that the permissiveness of open carry increases crime, all they are doing is making up criteria to fit the statistics.

States with additional firearm laws are considered "strong." States without additional firearm laws are considered "weak." How is this even up for debate?

[Ghostpanther]

What do you mean it makes no difference, you can´t just take numbers and compare them without taking into consideration how they orriginated.

You can´t treat accidents like killings.

I mean, sure we can talk about all the other causes for death, but what have they to do with firearm related deaths, and how would that not derail the conversation about gun control?

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Because this is a thread about gun control, if you want to discuss other topics i´ll join you, depending on the issue, i don´t know what´s so hard about this to understand.

and just for the record, i think cigarettes should be illegal as they bring little to no good to the life of people, trying to quit btw.

They are all related in terms of what some want to become all emotional about when other things are causing more harm.

Anyway, hope you are successful with your effort to quit smoking. Been there done that years ago. Not easy, but if one wants to enough, it can be done without anything but pure will power.

Common sense applies to so many things, including smoking and using a firearm.

[Tinykong]

States with additional firearm laws are considered "strong." States without additional firearm laws are considered "weak." How is this even up for debate?

Because they added in the "permissive carry" nonsense. Legal owners carrying legal firearms does not constitute a weakness towards "firearm violence."

[TZucchini]

Because they added in the "permissive carry" nonsense. Legal owners carrying legal firearms does not constitute a weakness towards "firearm violence."

This has nothing to do with legal owners carrying firearms. It has to do with the State laws regarding firearm ownership. A state law that requires police to either accept or decline a concealed carry permit is objectively doing more to prevent firearm violence than a state that does not have such a law.