Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Macaquerie]

If your country seriously decided to try and ban assualt weapons, you would basicly be facing an angry army of rednecks who are armed, radicalized, and obsessed with government oppression... If your country seriously moves to limit assault weapons, people, government employees, cops, WILL be killed...

It would be as if the government declared war on half the country if they moved to ban such weapons, and you know it.

All the more reason why it needs to happen sooner rather than later. The gun nuts can hide behind the Constitution all they want, but at the end of the day, the prospect of armed goons dictating policy at gunpoint is a far bigger threat to our democracy than anything that gun owners think that they need to defend against. You can hardly claim to be a law abiding citizen if you are constantly threatening to shoot people if the laws get changed to something you don't like.

[Tasttey]

Yea thats probably fair. Metal detectors where already being used before these more recent attacks.

That's the thing though, they were always viewed as being necessary in inner city schools, not "nice suburban communities."

People have a hard to realizing that maybe their school/neighborhood/town isn't nearly as safe as they always assumed.

When its Chicago and Jamal is doing the shooting its tragic but not unexpected, when its LA and its Jose, its a socioeconomic issue; but when its Chad opening fire in his high school at East Whitesville High and all of a sudden its the gun's fault.

Maybe its poor parenting, un-diagnosed/treated mental issues, the inability of schools to stop bullying and societies inability to teach children how to deal with it.

Hell maybe people are just assholes and we have a hard time adjusting to the fact that assholes come in all shapes/sizes/ages/colors.

[RobertoCarlos]

That's the thing though, they were always viewed as being necessary in inner city schools, not "nice suburban communities."

People have a hard to realizing that maybe their school/neighborhood/town isn't nearly as safe as they always assumed.

When its Chicago and Jamal is doing the shooting its tragic but not unexpected, when its LA and its Jose, its a socioeconomic issue; but when its Chad opening fire in his high school at East Whitesville High and all of a sudden its the gun's fault.

Maybe its poor parenting, un-diagnosed/treated mental issues, the inability of schools to stop bullying and societies inability to teach children how to deal with it.

Hell maybe people are just assholes and we have a hard time adjusting to the fact that assholes come in all shapes/sizes/ages/colors.

Its a complicated issue no doubt. I think lack of good parenting is a big one. Most of the street kids never know their fathers and its no surprise they fall into the drug/gang game where you need guns to survive. Nevermind all the bullshit murderer psycho shit. Mental health obviously underlines it all and no race and creed is exempt from its reach. And you're right, it only really becomes a big issue when it effects you or I, otherwise 9 times out of 10 people dont give a fuck. And hand wave it away as some other communities problem

[Macaquerie]

Its a complicated issue no doubt. I think lack of good parenting is a big one. Most of the street kids never know their fathers and its no surprise they fall into the drug/gang game where you need guns to survive. Nevermind all the bullshit murderer psycho shit. Mental health obviously underlines it all and no race and creed is exempt from its reach. And you're right, it only really becomes a big issue when it effects you or I, otherwise 9 times out of 10 people dont give a fuck. And hand wave it away as some other communities problem

If you think about it, American suburbs are basically the ultimate safe space, where affluent whites can live comfortably and never have to think about the problems that plague the rest of the country. But the problem with safe spaces is that, while you can eliminate a lot of the day to day violence and other problems, you can never be completely safe, so that when tragedy does strike it hits MUCH harder than it does in poorer areas. There has never been a school shooting on the scale of Parkland in any inner city school, not because there aren't kids who might want to do it, but because the students are subjected to so much suspicion already that it could never get to that point.

[Ghostpanther]

I want to commend AlexisSanchez for at least he/she is willing to discuss and hasn't followed suite w/what most of the anti gun people do.

I agree. He has so far, did it respectfully. Even if he misunderstands some things, I like his approach to discussing this topic at least with respect for others.

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Just seems kinda fucked when you have kids going through metal detectors on the way to biology because a lot of people love their guns too much

Yeah, it is a pain in the ass for millions of people traveling in the airports since 9/11. Not saying we need that level of security at schools, but they should not be there helpless ether. And the police take too long to respond.

[Stormdash]

Interesting, the bulk change in airport security after 9/11 was because of common-use, non-martial bladed tools in the hands of those with the will to do evil. One of the main changes? Pilots and Air Marshals having firearms.

[primalmatter]

Guns have been more restricted now then ever in history. You want a real answer to why shootings are up look at the culture we have fostered.

[Vankrys]

Guns have been more restricted now then ever in history. You want a real answer to why shootings are up look at the culture we have fostered.

That doesn't seem right. Wasn't there a ban on assault rifle up until 2010?

[primalmatter]

That doesn't seem right. Wasn't there a ban on assault rifle up until 2010?

I am talking long term over the course of decades.

[Vankrys]

I am talking long term over the course of decades.

You don't make sense. Be more accurate in your statements.

[Ghostpanther]

That doesn't seem right. Wasn't there a ban on assault rifle up until 2010?

Which of all the firearms, causes far less deaths than handguns do. Which is one reason the min age to purchase a handgun is 21, instead of 18 for rifles. But yes, they were banned for 10 years, and they found out, during those 10 years, the firearm deaths did not decline any more than it was on track to do anyway. Firearm deaths had been on the decline before the AR-15 was banned. Some states now have bans on the AR-15. Most do not.

[primalmatter]

You don't make sense. Be more accurate in your statements.

I won't lower myself to your level aspire to mine.

[Ghostpanther]

Interesting, the bulk change in airport security after 9/11 was because of common-use, non-martial bladed tools in the hands of those with the will to do evil. One of the main changes? Pilots and Air Marshals having firearms.

Yep. And the passengers never know who the Air Marshall is on their plane.

[Vankrys]

I won't lower myself to your level aspire to mine.

Arrogance and patronizing attitude are poor debate tools.

[judgementofantonidas]

Would anyone have a problem mirroring gun control laws with driver's license requirements?

Sure. So long as they mirror the CDL licence and not the C or M licence. The CDL is invalidated by certain misdemeanour, a felony, or health issues. The CDL also requires you to carry a medical examiner's card which has to be renewed every two years. Austensibly that could include a mental fitness check.

[Stormdash]

That doesn't seem right. Wasn't there a ban on assault rifle up until 2010?

The ban on new import or manufacture of assault rifles was enacted in 1986 and remains in effect. There is an extant supply about 186,000 ish full auto rifles or auto-sears (a component that can make a gun fire full auto and subject to the ban) and they require a special license and supply and demand make them ludicrously expensive.

The "Assault Weapons Ban" expired in 2004, after which crime actually started dropping not rising. This ban was on semi-automatic rifles with two or more of a list of cosmetic features that did not effect the weapon's functionality or capacity in the least bit. It was literally a ban on how a weapon looks only.

[judgementofantonidas]

That doesn't seem right. Wasn't there a ban on assault rifle up until 2010?

The configuration of a weapon does not make it an "assault" weapon. The purpose it is used for does.

[primalmatter]

Arrogance and patronizing attitude are poor debate tools.

Yet effective enough to dispatch you.

[Stormdash]

Would anyone have a problem mirroring gun control laws with driver's license requirements?

Absolutely. Nobody has an express civil liberty interest in operating a motor vehicle on public highways, they do have an express liberty interest in owning a firearm. Not sure the kind of licensing you have in mind could satisfy heightened scrutiny.

[Svifnymr]

In practical terms, because the profit margins on "kewl" quasi-military weapons like the AR-15s are much higher than on boring old handguns and hunting rifles,

No they aren't.

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Still dont see why you need a big gun to do this instead of just having a smaller gun

I mean, the problem is that you really aren't very knowledgeable about guns.

A few simple rules:
1) the bigger the gun, the less recoil
2) the bigger the bullet, the more recoil/ power
3) AR15 is a brand of gun (AR stands for Armalite, the first maker, not Assault Rifle), not a category.

So, 9mm is normally a handgun bullet. They make AR's that fire 9mm. In the AR (or other carbine), the 9mm will be easier to shoot, more accurate, longer range.
If you want to shoot up a crowded place with a bunch of folks that will not fight back, accuracy doesn't count, longer range doesn't count. Easier to shoot (less recoil) might count some, but it won't make a big difference.

But, if you're in your home, with family to protect, that accuracy is helpful. Longer range might also help if you're in a rural area with four-legged pests.

Oh, and you can hang scopes/ lasers/ flashlights/ bayonets, whatever on the rifle too.


The "normal" round for an AR15 (and Nato countries) is the 5.56/ .223, it is more powerful than 9mm, but a lot less powerful than 308 or any main hunting round. It is used in military guns because modern doctrine is more about suppression and full auto fire rather than taking aim at an enemy. This has actually become a problem in Afghanistan where distances require a bigger bullet. In hunting, it is used vs very light game such as varmints (coyote/ groundhog) and semi-auto works when trying to get a group of pigs before they all get away.

It is a small, fast bullet, which makes it low recoil but loud as fuck.

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That's because those three were designed as semi-automatic rifles, whereas the AR-15 was designed as an automatic weapon but had that feature disabled for the sole purpose of being able to sell it on the civilian market. It's round is less powerful because that was a choice the designers made to keep it more controllable in its intended fully automatic form, though it does have the side benefit of making it easier to handle for random civilians as well. Perhaps looking like a military assault rifle is a reason it gets so much hate, but on the other hand, it's also the main reason why most of its customers want to buy one as well.

Wrong.
M1a is designed from the M14.
Mini14 was a scaled down version of that, hence the name, but was designed as both a semi auto and machinegun (AC556). It uses the same bullet as the AR15. It is the Ateam gun!

742 was indeed always a semi-auto, but fires no faster or slower than an AR15.

In fact, the AR15 was co-designed as a semiauto and a full auto model, though ATF's input required other changes to insure they weren't cross compatible.

In typical stubborn America fashion, the main reason for the popularity of the AR15 was because Clinton told them they couldn't have them. Once the ban ended, everyone had to have one (or 10). It does coincide with a lot of refinement of the system, and use in various competitions as well. The other thing that pushed it to the forefront is modularity. The mini14 has very few things you can do to it. The AR15 can be altered to customize it how you want, change the sights, the stock, the barrel. None affect the function of the gun, but you can dress your Barbie however you want.

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That doesn't seem right. Wasn't there a ban on assault rifle up until 2010?

AWB went from 94-04, and when they wanted to talk about effectiveness they were told the rifles were never responsible for enough crime in the first place to measure a decrease now.

Connecticut and other states maintain versions of the AWB, so the rifle that was used in Sandyhook was not legally an assault weapon.