Why couldn't the Lich King kill Kil'jaeden or maybe even Sargeras?

[TheAmazingFeedz]

Old gods had army too.. and imprisoning is actually harder than killing. Kosak also said recently that titans dealed with many old gods before they came to Azeroth so old gods are not that special as you think. Sargeras would destroy them 1-1. You think he doesn't know about them? Old gods=ancient parasite. That's it.

They did have armies, but the Pantheon had an army of Titans, whom were known to be more powerful then the Elementals Lords. Again, if there were to be an Alliance of Old Gods as there are Alliance of most Titans, I would think the Old Gods would win. If N'Zoth wanted to he could probably corrupt Sargeras' already corrupted mind. Also, yes the Titans killed probably a lot of Old Gods, but who knowd, the Old Gods probably killed a lot of Titans. He wasn't really clear about what he was saying either, so he probably just mistakenly said what he said. Oh, and I did see the video where he said it.

[Deleted]

Meh, Lich King could take on Kil'Jaeden (If it were Lich Kings forces vs Kil' Jaeden's forces).

---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 03:42 PM ----------

He created the Lich King, in which created the plague. If the Lich King was still under the command of Kil'Jaeden he wouldn't be as powerful as was in his prime. I also think Yogg' Saron had something to do with helping the Lich King create the Scourge and such, since he is the God of death and their is said to be a connection. Hopefully they reveal to us more about the connections between Yogg' Saron and the Lich King in the future.

And for all the people thinking Yogg; Saron is dead, he isn't. Just put back asleep.

Edit: And Deathwing empowered by the Old Gods could annihilate Kil'Jaeden. I also remember hearing that Archimonde always retreated battle when Deathwing entered the battlefield.

---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 03:58 PM ----------

The Old Gods brainwashed Azshara into creating a portal big enough to fit Sargeras through, mostly because they wanted to be freed and with a Legion invasion being held, it would to so much damage to Azeroth that it would break their prisons. The knew what they were up against, and obviously planned to kill Sargeras once they were freed. I'd say a fully awakened Old God could take on a single Titan, especially since it took an army of Titans to imprison 5 Old Gods and the Old Gods weren't even allied, rather they were fighting each other.

---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 04:02 PM ----------


Come on, a single fully awakened Old God would probably wreck Sargeras single handedly, since like mentioned above, it took a whole army of Titans(Including Sargeras) to imprison 5 Old Gods, and the Old Gods weren't even allied, so who knows, an Alliance of Old Gods could probably take on the Pantheon.

I hope you're trolling...

Every single point you make is invalid.
1. You can't possibly suggest that Lich King's forces(that populate one continent on one world) are stronger than the Burning Legion's army, which populates entire planet(s).

2. It was never said to be a connection between Yogg-Saron and the Lich King. Lich King used the Old God's blood(Saronite) for his own agenda. He wasn't brainwashed by Yogg, nor was he working with him.

3. I can't recall reading anything about Archimonde retreating when "Deathwing entered the battlefield." Anyway, In my opinion Archimonde is/was stronger than Deathwing. Sure, it took a very powerful artifact to destroy Deathwing, but to destroy Archimonde an entire race had to sacrifice their immortality. Plus, Archimonde was not only extremely powerful due to his physical strength, but could also handle dark magic very well(as we saw when he destroyed Dalaran), unlike Deathwing.

4. From what I remember, Azshara was attempting to summon Sargeras prior to the Sundering. The Old Gods offered their "gift" to her and her people after the Well of Eternity exploded(or imploded?) and the Highborne were drowning. Unless Blizzard retconed it recently I doubt that she was trying to "lure" Sargeras to our world.

5. It was never stated how many Titans it took to imprison the Old Gods. Also, there was absolutely nothing indicating that Sargeras was on Azeroth when the Titans were fighting the Old Gods.

[Deleted]

There are no source that stated that Kil'jaeden's physical strength is weaker than Archimonde. Only source we have is that he is ranked higher than Archimonde and Velen stated that KJ is better at matters of arcane than both Archimonde and KJ. I don't think there's anything stronger than magic at their power level so it's pretty clear that KJ is stronger. So, what you said are wrong. Just because he is smart doesn't mean he doesn't have strength.

You talk stupidly without having an idea of what you are talking about.
Want to see a strong magic user? Look at what Gul'dan did, read a little about him. How he enslaved a firelord how he nearly destroyed a race along with their camps, severely damaged a planet and many more.

Sure, like any lore noob you gona pull the following shit: Yeah but Kil'jaedan thought Gul'dan what he knows.

And the answer is simple: Kil'jaedan tought a far stronger magic user (Gul'dan had the potential to be like Sargeras.. on wowwiki i read "Gul'dan was seeking the eye of Sargeras to become as strong as the Dark titan himself"), because he personally is weak. The coach is never stronger than the champion!

Learn a lil something... "Kil'jaedan master of all arcane." where exactly does it quote that, please give me a link. Velen opinion is not a fact. Especially when Velen was hunt down by Gul'dan till he flew of the fucking PLANET.


All that Kil'jaedan is ...but a deceiver. Puting Illidan to destroy the Lich King... like a coword.

Lich King would destroy Kil'jaedan

Gul'dan would not only destroy Kil'jaedan.. he would enslave him and twist his soul untill nothing remains (please go ahead check Cypher of Damnation). And i raise the stakes.. Sargeras was in big trouble if Gul'dan would have put his hands on that artifact.. no wonder his image appeared before Gul'dan in that tomb.

Aegwynn would destroy Kil'jaedan.

Medivh would destroy Kil'jaedan.

And many more.

[Vakna]

I'm pretty sure it has to land the killing blow to take their soul...

The first soul it claimed was Arthas', he never got killed by it.

[BHD]

You talk stupidly without having an idea of what you are talking about.
Want to see a strong magic user? Look at what Gul'dan did, read a little about him. How he enslaved a firelord how he nearly destroyed a race along with their camps, severely damaged a planet and many more.

Sure, like any lore noob you gona pull the following shit: Yeah but Kil'jaedan thought Gul'dan what he knows.

And the answer is simple: Kil'jaedan tought a far stronger magic user (Gul'dan had the potential to be like Sargeras.. on wowwiki i read "Gul'dan was seeking the eye of Sargeras to become as strong as the Dark titan himself"), because he personally is weak. The coach is never stronger than the champion!

Learn a lil something... "Kil'jaedan master of all arcane." where exactly does it quote that, please give me a link. Velen opinion is not a fact. Especially when Velen was hunt down by Gul'dan till he flew of the fucking PLANET.


All that Kil'jaedan is ...but a deceiver. Puting Illidan to destroy the Lich King... like a coword.

Lich King would destroy Kil'jaedan
Gul'dan would not only destroy Kil'jaedan.. he would enslave him.
Aegwynn would destroy Kil'jaedan.
Medivh would destroy Kil'jaedan.
And many more.

Jeebus, there's no need to open each post with such rudeness.

Velen's and Archimonde's opinion is the only "fact" we can ever get because they don't have powerlevels, and seeing how Velen and Kil'jaeden thought of each other as brothers I'd say Velen knew enough about the "man" to state something like this. And Velen fleeing the planet doesn't prove anything at all. Not sure why Gul'dan is brought up in this thread anyway.

[Deleted]

Jeebus, there's no need to open each post with such rudeness.

Velen's and Archimonde's opinion is the only "fact" we can ever get because they don't have powerlevels, and seeing how Velen and Kil'jaeden thought of each other as brothers I'd say Velen knew enough about the "man" to state something like this. And Velen fleeing the planet doesn't prove anything at all. Not sure why Gul'dan is brought up in this thread anyway.

Yeah sorry for the rudeness. But i did not start it.
As for Gul'dan i just gave an example of a powerful magic user, cos he seem confused.

[Throren]

KJ is the best arcane user in the universe except for Sargeras.

The titan Norgannon would like to say hello

[Deleted]

The titan Norgannon would like to say hello

Mate hes just confused...
Velen and Archimonde said that Kil'jaedan is a better magic user than them.
From that to best arcane in the universe is a far far way.

More powerful than Velen... who would have thought... has Velen ever engaged in any combat, atleast for training? For all we know even Gamon could be a stronger spell caster than Velen.


This dude you are quoting is confused.

Magic wise there are tons of characters out there better than Kil'jaedan.

[Deleted]

3. I can't recall reading anything about Archimonde retreating when "Deathwing entered the battlefield." Anyway, In my opinion Archimonde is/was stronger than Deathwing. Sure, it took a very powerful artifact to destroy Deathwing, but to destroy Archimonde an entire race had to sacrifice their immortality. Plus, Archimonde was not only extremely powerful due to his physical strength, but could also handle dark magic very well(as we saw when he destroyed Dalaran), unlike Deathwing.

He is correct on this point, Archimonde did retreat when Deathwing entered on the War of the Ancients, it's on the WotA novels. Also, Deathwing is also a master of arcane, if not more, that not even the Kirin Tor knew that Lord Prestor was mind controlling the Kings and Archmages.

But yea, he was wrong on all other points.

[BHD]

This dude you are quoting is confused.

Norgannon, the Titan who blessed Malygos with a portion of his power, is just confused?

Norgannon is a master of the arcane magic, knowledge, secrets and mysteries. In many of the worlds created by the titans, spellcasters revere him as paragon of their spellcrafts, and whisper his name when casting a spell while others beseech his protection against the corruption of the arcane.

[Deleted]

Norgannon, the Titan who blessed Malygos with a portion of his power, is just confused?

I was saying the guy confused is the one previously quoted.. Like who Drewan quoted, not that statement you showed.
So moon guy is confused.


But back to the topic.
Knowing that Kil'jaedan tortured Ner'zhul to the death... any logical being would have said that Lich King first agenda is Kil'jaedan and his Legion.

But hey blizzard had to involve the playable factions here right. So they pen-scrawled Lich King's agenda and they put Horde-Alliance.



I would have loved to see Scourge endless undead armies march towords Burning Legion planet. Just to see how the Legion reacts when they are in defensive for the first time.

[TheAmazingFeedz]

I hope you're trolling...

Every single point you make is invalid.
1. You can't possibly suggest that Lich King's forces(that populate one continent on one world) are stronger than the Burning Legion's army, which populates entire planet(s).

2. It was never said to be a connection between Yogg-Saron and the Lich King. Lich King used the Old God's blood(Saronite) for his own agenda. He wasn't brainwashed by Yogg, nor was he working with him.

3. I can't recall reading anything about Archimonde retreating when "Deathwing entered the battlefield." Anyway, In my opinion Archimonde is/was stronger than Deathwing. Sure, it took a very powerful artifact to destroy Deathwing, but to destroy Archimonde an entire race had to sacrifice their immortality. Plus, Archimonde was not only extremely powerful due to his physical strength, but could also handle dark magic very well(as we saw when he destroyed Dalaran), unlike Deathwing.

4. From what I remember, Azshara was attempting to summon Sargeras prior to the Sundering. The Old Gods offered their "gift" to her and her people after the Well of Eternity exploded(or imploded?) and the Highborne were drowning. Unless Blizzard retconed it recently I doubt that she was trying to "lure" Sargeras to our world.

5. It was never stated how many Titans it took to imprison the Old Gods. Also, there was absolutely nothing indicating that Sargeras was on Azeroth when the Titans were fighting the Old Gods.

1. Didn't Kil' Jaeden only command a certain faction in the Burning Legion? If not then you're right on that point.

2. That was just pure speculation. I said I think he did what he did because of Yogg' Saron influence, Blizzard did not confirmed this to be true or not, so I'm going to stick with my opinion.

3. I remember reading it somewhere but I forget where.. Anyways, it took four of the most powerful race on Azeroth plus the use of some ancient demon artifact to completely destroy Deathwing. Also, in order to defeat Deathwing, the aspects had to sacrifice their mortality as well and their powers and such. Four of the strongest beings who lead one of the most powerful armies on Azeroth(Dragonflights) I think is more important then some race that Azeroth would probably be better off without(If it weren't for the night Elves, the War of the Ancients would of never happened)

4. She had heard whispers of the Old Gods before the Sundering, in which have said to influence her to summon Sargeras. Even though if there wasn't any proof to back this theory up, it is a good plan in terms of setting free the Old Gods and it is very plausible.

5. Sargeras was part of the Pantheon when they were n Azeroth fighting the Old Gods, which was before he had became corrupted.

---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 06:17 PM ----------

He is correct on this point, Archimonde did retreat when Deathwing entered on the War of the Ancients, it's on the WotA novels. Also, Deathwing is also a master of arcane, if not more, that not even the Kirin Tor knew that Lord Prestor was mind controlling the Kings and Archmages.

But yea, he was wrong on all other points.

Nah, I'm pretty sure I'm right on all the other ones. Either that or I am getting massively confused in terms of the lore because you got to admit, the lore can be pretty confusing..

[wariofan1]

I think with Sargeras's absence. KJ is plotting something to take over BL himself. I think if next xpac is legion then we will deal with KJ's legion not Sargeras's. That's my speculation.

The next time we're gonna face The Legion will be against Sargeras. KJ can't carry an expansion by himself, especially not since we've already defeated him once as an endboss. It would also be really illogical to have 3 Legion expansions, 2 should be max, both for the sake of players and Blizzard's wallet. Although I can see that the Legion would split in two since Kil'jaeden seemed pretty happy about the idea of himself ruling the universe and not Sargeras.

Old gods had army too.. and imprisoning is actually harder than killing. Kosak also said recently that titans dealed with many old gods before they came to Azeroth so old gods are not that special as you think. Sargeras would destroy them 1-1. You think he doesn't know about them? Old gods=ancient parasite. That's it.

The Old Gods are far more than ancient parasites, the Titan's own security systems fail by the hands (or tentacles?) of the Old Gods. Also, I don't seem to see anywhere where it says imprisoning is harder than killing, in the Warcraft universe imprisoning has always been the easy way to get rid of bad guys. The Titans weren't smart enough to know that no imprisonment lasts forever though. It's also worth noting that C'thun took down a Titan 1v1, and despite big damage he survived. The Titans couldn't kill The Old Gods, but they could be killed themselves. If the Old Gods weren't the biggest baddies in Warcraft they wouldn't have had such major built up as they've had, Yogg-Saron would have been saved for later, N'zoth wouldn't have been mentioned, and they definitely wouldn't have done it a 3rd time in a row with Y'Shaarj. Blizzard wants the endboss of WoW to be a recognizable character for all once it launches, the Old Gods are obviously being built up for that, Sargeras is not.

And then there's also this:

She had heard whispers of the Old Gods before the Sundering, in which have said to influence her to summon Sargeras. Even though there wasn't any proof to back this theory up, it is a good plan in terms of setting free the Old Gods.

The Old Gods WANTED Sargeras to come through. They'd either kill him or possess him once he would have come through. We've seen Titan constructs bend over to the Old Gods' manipulative minds before, if the Nathrezim could corrupt Sargeras then so would the Old Gods be able to.

[Deleted]

The Lich King is vastly inferior to Kil'Jaeden, let alone Sargeras and Frostmourne hasnt a oneshot effect.

[the0o]

....
But hey blizzard had to involve the playable factions here right. So they pen-scrawled Lich King's agenda and they put Horde-Alliance..

The lich Kings agenda made sense. If his end game was the legion then he had to get powerful allies, so he baited us, "trained" us and was ready to convert us if we were powerful enough to harm him.

LK had to know about Yogg and the aspects, I doubt he could take them down himself so again he needed powerful champions to kill them so he raise them and continue to kill and raise every living being on the planet until he had a global army strong enough to take on the legions.

[TheAmazingFeedz]

The next time we're gonna face The Legion will be against Sargeras. KJ can't carry an expansion by himself, especially not since we've already defeated him once as an endboss. It would also be really illogical to have 3 Legion expansions, 2 should be max, both for the sake of players and Blizzard's wallet. Although I can see that the Legion would split in two since Kil'jaeden seemed pretty happy about the idea of himself ruling the universe and not Sargeras.



The Old Gods are far more than ancient parasites, the Titan's own security systems fail by the hands (or tentacles?) of the Old Gods. Also, I don't seem to see anywhere where it says imprisoning is harder than killing, in the Warcraft universe imprisoning has always been the easy way to get rid of bad guys. The Titans weren't smart enough to know that no imprisonment lasts forever though. It's also worth noting that C'thun took down a Titan 1v1, and despite big damage he survived. The Titans couldn't kill The Old Gods, but they could be killed themselves. If the Old Gods weren't the biggest baddies in Warcraft they wouldn't have had such major built up as they've had, Yogg-Saron would have been saved for later, N'zoth wouldn't have been mentioned, and they definitely wouldn't have done it a 3rd time in a row with Y'Shaarj. Blizzard wants the endboss of WoW to be a recognizable character for all once it launches, the Old Gods are obviously being built up for that, Sargeras is not.

And then there's also this:



The Old Gods WANTED Sargeras to come through. They'd either kill him or possess him once he would have come through. We've seen Titan constructs bend over to the Old Gods' manipulative minds before, if the Nathrezim could corrupt Sargeras then so would the Old Gods be able to.

Exactly. Also, C'Thun was the youngest and weakest of all the Old Gods on Azeroth at the time and took a Titan 1v1. So that a lone kind of makes one question about there true power.

And yeah that was the point I was coming across.

[Deleted]

1. Didn't Kil' Jaeden only command a certain faction in the Burning Legion? If not then you're right on that point.

2. That was just pure speculation. I said I think he did what he did because of Yogg' Saron influence, Blizzard did not confirmed this to be true or not, so I'm going to stick with my opinion.

3. I remember reading it somewhere but I forget where.. Anyways, it took four of the most powerful race on Azeroth plus the use of some ancient demon artifact to completely destroy Deathwing. Also, in order to defeat Deathwing, the aspects had to sacrifice their mortality as well and their powers and such. Four of the strongest beings who lead one of the most powerful armies on Azeroth(Dragonflights) I think is more important then some race that Azeroth would probably be better off without(If it weren't for the night Elves, the War of the Ancients would of never happened)

4. She had heard whispers of the Old Gods before the Sundering, in which have said to influence her to summon Sargeras. Even though if there wasn't any proof to back this theory up, it is a good plan in terms of setting free the Old Gods and it is very plausible.

5. Sargeras was part of the Pantheon when they were n Azeroth fighting the Old Gods, which was before he had became corrupted.

---------- Post added 2012-12-27 at 06:17 PM ----------

Nah, I'm pretty sure I'm right on all the other ones. Either that or I am getting massively confused in terms of the lore because you got to admit, the lore can be pretty confusing..

1. Kil'jaeden is the current leader of the Burning Legion. Blizzard never even hinted anything about factions within the legion.

2. Fair enough.

3. Knaak can have this one. Even though it weren't only the Night Elves who attampted to stop Archimonde from draining the World Tree. From what I remember the humans and the orcs couldn't stop him from reaching Nordrassil. Also, didn't the aspects sacrifice their powers after Deathwing's death?

4. Again, unless it was recently retconned, the Old Gods contacted her after the sundering, when they offered to save her and her people.

5. Yet it was never stated if he was present on Azeroth at the time or not.

The next time we're gonna face The Legion will be against Sargeras. KJ can't carry an expansion by himself, especially not since we've already defeated him once as an endboss. It would also be really illogical to have 3 Legion expansions, 2 should be max, both for the sake of players and Blizzard's wallet. Although I can see that the Legion would split in two since Kil'jaeden seemed pretty happy about the idea of himself ruling the universe and not Sargeras.



The Old Gods are far more than ancient parasites, the Titan's own security systems fail by the hands (or tentacles?) of the Old Gods. Also, I don't seem to see anywhere where it says imprisoning is harder than killing, in the Warcraft universe imprisoning has always been the easy way to get rid of bad guys. The Titans weren't smart enough to know that no imprisonment lasts forever though. It's also worth noting that C'thun took down a Titan 1v1, and despite big damage he survived. The Titans couldn't kill The Old Gods, but they could be killed themselves. If the Old Gods weren't the biggest baddies in Warcraft they wouldn't have had such major built up as they've had, Yogg-Saron would have been saved for later, N'zoth wouldn't have been mentioned, and they definitely wouldn't have done it a 3rd time in a row with Y'Shaarj. Blizzard wants the endboss of WoW to be a recognizable character for all once it launches, the Old Gods are obviously being built up for that, Sargeras is not.

And then there's also this:



The Old Gods WANTED Sargeras to come through. They'd either kill him or possess him once he would have come through. We've seen Titan constructs bend over to the Old Gods' manipulative minds before, if the Nathrezim could corrupt Sargeras then so would the Old Gods be able to.

I don't get if you're trying to say that the Titans didn't want to kill the Old Gods, or that they simply weren't strong enough? If it's the later - we know for a fact that the Old Gods can be killed. The Titans just didn't want to destroy their creations, and that was only possible if they keep the Old Gods on Azeroth alive(or some of them at least). For example - Algalon the Observer was sent to check what is going on Azeroth, and if he found that the corruption is still spreading freely he could have ordered a "cleansing" of the planet, killing every living being in the process. It is also known that Y'Shaarj has been killed. So, no, the Titans could and still can kill the Old Gods.

And last, but not least- Sargeras wasn't corrupted by the Nathrezim. Him turning against the Pantheon was his own decision. And while the Old Gods can influence titanic constructs(even over loooong period of time), we can't say for sure that they can have any effect of the Titans themselves.

...C'Thun was the youngest and weakest of all the Old Gods on Azeroth...

And where did you get that from?

[Deadite]

If one hit from Frostmourne can kill someone and steal their soul, does that mean the Lich King can kill anyone under the right circumstances. Also why didn't Arthas form a plan and take a legion of scourge to bring down Kil'Jaeden in a surprise attack?

They may have based it on Stormbringer but its not Stormbringer. You have to kill the guy first with Frostmourne and against those two you mention he wouldn't last that long.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I'm the best Mage/Sorcerrer in all of the cosmos and Azeroth!

Norgannon is my bitch.

[TheAmazingFeedz]

1. Kil'jaeden is the current leader of the Burning Legion. Blizzard never even hinted anything about factions within the legion.

2. Fair enough.

3. Knaak can have this one. Even though it weren't only the Night Elves who attampted to stop Archimonde from draining the World Tree. From what I remember the humans and the orcs couldn't stop him from reaching Nordrassil. Also, didn't the aspects sacrifice their powers after Deathwing's death?

4. Again, unless it was recently retconned, the Old Gods contacted her after the sundering, when they offered to save her and her people.

5. Yet it was never stated if he was present on Azeroth at the time or not.



I don't get if you're trying to say that the Titans didn't want to kill the Old Gods, or that they simply weren't strong enough? If it's the later - we know for a fact that the Old Gods can be killed. The Titans just didn't want to destroy their creations, and that was only possible if they keep the Old Gods on Azeroth alive(or some of them at least). For example - Algalon the Observer was sent to check what is going on Azeroth, and if he found that the corruption is still spreading freely he could have ordered a "cleansing" of the planet, killing every living being in the process. It is also known that Y'Shaarj has been killed. So, no, the Titans could and still can kill the Old Gods.

And last, but not least- Sargeras wasn't corrupted by the Nathrezim. Him turning against the Pantheon was his own decision. And while the Old Gods can influence titanic constructs(even over loooong period of time), we can't say for sure that they can have any effect of the Titans themselves.



And where did you get that from?

You can only assume he was since he was part of the Pantheon at the time. And we know hardly anything about the Titans right now, so most lore regarding Titans is probably all speculation. But we do know Titans can be killed too, as C'Thun killed one himself.