Is Elune the most powerful in Warcraft?

[Golden Yak]

What if the blade were sentient? Titans themselves are born of steel and stone, so it doesn't seem like a stretch that the blade, itself, could be a living thing.

It's certainly possible that the blade of Sargeras was/is alive. And the Naaru have themselves been made into swords (Ashbringer anyone?)

I feel that anything on Elune's level isn't something even a Titan could hope to wield as a tool, though.

[DarkTZeratul]

In Warcraft, the term "god" just means "powerful enough to demand worship and has an indefinite lifespan". Don't confuse it with the real-life concept of a "god" which is infinite in ability. Anyone acting as if the title "god" denotes that they are more powerful than non-gods is misguided.

The is absolutely not the case. While those are qualities of gods, simply having those qualities does not make one a god; Blizzard has firmly established that being a god is more than just a meaningless title, and that gods are not omnipotent:
http://web.archive.org/web/200702100...opedia/417.xml

"...The power of a god is limited. Otherwise, of course, the Old Gods could not have been imprisoned."

Bear in mind, too, that gods in many real world religions are not omnipotent either; there is a big difference between "God" and "a god." Just look at the Norse, Greek, and Egyptian pantheons.

Just because she's considered a goddess by Night Elf culture doesn't mean Elune isn't a Naaru.

She's not just considered a goddess by Night Elf culture. She's been directly stated to be a deity by Blizzard themselves:
http://web.archive.org/web/200702100...opedia/392.xml

"One of Azeroth's few full deities, Elune is the goddess of the moon."

[Eats Compost]

It's certainly possible that the blade of Sargeras was/is alive. And the Naaru have themselves been made into swords (Ashbringer anyone?)

I feel that anything on Elune's level isn't something even a Titan could hope to wield as a tool, though.

Elune's power is quite ill-defined. What's the most powerful thing she's ever done? She can grant significant boons, but she has never come into the fray and done something on the level of, say, a Dragon Aspect.

I think a lot of people are making the mistake of equating Elune to a typical omnipresent god because of her lack of physical presence. That doesn't necessarily mean that she's all-powerful or anything close to it. It's entirely possible that what she's already doing is the limit of her powers.

---------- Post added 2012-12-21 at 01:45 AM ----------

The is absolutely not the case. While those are qualities of gods, simply having those qualities does not make one a god; Blizzard has firmly established that being a god is more than just a meaningless title, and that gods are not omnipotent:
http://web.archive.org/web/200702100...opedia/417.xml

"...The power of a god is limited. Otherwise, of course, the Old Gods could not have been imprisoned."

Bear in mind, too, that gods in many real world religions are not omnipotent either; there is a big difference between "God" and "a god." Just look at the Norse, Greek, and Egyptian pantheons.

That article seems to pretty much agree with what I said; that the definition of a "god" in Warcraft is not set by any means, and that the only consistent elements are that they're immortal and influential. The title doesn't denote their specific level of power.

Also, I was referring to the typical modern western image of a "god". I'm fully aware that there are other religions out there that have non-omnipotent gods.

She's not just considered a goddess by Night Elf culture. She's been directly stated to be a deity by Blizzard themselves:
http://web.archive.org/web/200702100...opedia/392.xml

"One of Azeroth's few full deities, Elune is the goddess of the moon."

And the question is why she is considered a god. It is not similar to something like a species, for Hakkar, Old Gods and Elune are all significantly different in their qualities and origins, and their immortality and power is all that puts them in the same category.

If their classification as a "god" is due solely to their power and immortality, then Naaru could be considered gods by the same definition. If it is due to their received worship, then a specifc Naaru being worshiped could be considered a god.

In considering that Blizzard have referred to Elune as a god, it's highly important to consider what classifies them as a god.

[DarkTZeratul]

Elune's power is quite ill-defined. What's the most powerful thing she's ever done? She can grant significant boons, but she has never come into the fray and done something on the level of, say, a Dragon Aspect.

She acted several times during the War of the Ancients. Usually providing significant protections to Tyrande and her allies, though on one occasion she attacked the Burning Legion with a rain of moonlight. Then there's the creation of the moonkin, several visions, and the cleansing of the satyr Avrus Illwhisper.

[Eats Compost]

She acted several times during the War of the Ancients. Usually providing significant protections to Tyrande and her allies, though on one occasion she attacked the Burning Legion with a rain of moonlight. Then there's the creation of the moonkin, several visions, and the cleansing of the satyr Avrus Illwhisper.

None of which are at all significant compared to what a Titan could do, and even something as relatively lowly as the Mogu have created species and shaped flesh.

None of that seems to suggest that she is incredibly powerful. Powerful, but not incredibly.

[Vaelyn]

Yeah and with how powerful the Titans are / were even they could not kill off the Old Gods all they could do was only imprison them like Yogg Saron and C'Thun though not sure if CT was actually imprisoned.

From what I've gained reading quest text in WoW. The titans did in fact kill one Old God upon arriving on Azeroth: Y'shaarj. The evil that was unleashed upon the world upon his death was so terrible, they chose to imprison the other Old Gods, including C'Thun, Yogg Saron and N'Zoth (I believe there's one more unamed Old God as well still). The Old Gods' biggest strength is their ability to corrupt anything, even while imprisoned, if given enough time. The Titans, themselves, and probably the Naaru are not safe from the corruption of the Old Gods.

Only thing I don't understand is if Pandaria has had so much corruption and issues (the Sha) since Y'Sharrj's death, why hasn't there been any fallout from us killing C'Thun and Yogg Saron? Does it just take time? We kill a couple more of those things and is there just going to be massive Dark Age of corruption everywhere? I'm curious where they take this...

[Eats Compost]

From what I've gained reading quest text in WoW. The titans did in fact kill one Old God upon arriving on Azeroth: Y'shaarj. The evil that was unleashed upon the world upon his death was so terrible, they chose to imprison the other Old Gods, including C'Thun, Yogg Saron and N'Zoth (I believe there's one more unamed Old God as well still). The Old Gods' biggest strength is their ability to corrupt anything, even while imprisoned, if given enough time. The Titans, themselves, and probably the Naaru are not safe from the corruption of the Old Gods.

Only thing I don't understand is if Pandaria has had so much corruption and issues (the Sha) since Y'Sharrj's death, why hasn't there been any fallout from us killing C'Thun and Yogg Saron? Does it just take time? We kill a couple more of those things and is there just going to be massive Dark Age of corruption everywhere? I'm curious where they take this...

There's a few possible explanations. It's possible that Y'shaarj was a more powerful Old God, or that his Sha affinity was unique to him, as not all Old Gods may have the same qualities. It's also possible that the lengthy imprisonment of the Old Gods did something to weaken them and stem any residual effects that their deaths may have had; in fact, it stands to reason that these Old Gods probably were weakened in some capacity, given that mortals could strike them down at all. Another explanation, and quite a possible one at that, is that the Old Gods aren't dead at all, and that we just defeated them. After all, they're floating heads in pools - how do we know if those were their main bodies, or just appendages?

Perhaps, just like the Sha requiring negative emotion to flourish, the influence of the other Old Gods' remnants need some kind of trigger to manifest itself. Maybe that trigger just hasn't come about yet.

[purebalance]

Prove it. We've provided incontrovertible evidence that Blizzard has directly stated that she is a god. You have provided speculation and rumor.

Not quite true.

That was written as if by an inhabitant of Azeroth. To anyone who was alive on Azeroth during Vanilla that knew of Elune she was regarded as such. Pharaohs in Egypt were regarded as gods in their time and we know today they were simply men and women. Back then it was incontrovertible that they were gods. Today it is not. The same goes for Elune. They have not said she is not a goddess simply that she MIGHT be a Naaru thus nothing has necessarily changed.

The way the Elune is made out to be a goddess however is one that is omnipotent and omnipresent in terms of the night elves. The argument being made by many in this thread is more like she is a Norse or Greek god which is NOT what you're led to believe.

Furthermore, the denouncing of potential Naaru powers is silly when there have been plenty of cases that they barely use any of their strength for great feats

Also I love how people refuse to believe in ascensions. A mortal in many fantasy stories can ascend to godhood. She could have been a Naaru like Mu'ru and ascended to a higher plane which with his actions for the Sunwell it can be interpretted that he may have done the same.

Also to the people using Mu'ru as a way to debunk the Elune Naaru thing, Mu'ru allowed himself to be captured, drained, and converted for the good of others. Essentially Mu'ru was a Jesus figure in "dying" for the sins of the blood elves who were the ones who essentially crucified him and once everything was said and done he potentially ascended.

[DarkTZeratul]

More than likely, we have not truly killed C'Thun and Yogg-Saron. At the very least, C'Thun seems to have persisted after the "death" of his body, as he was whispering to both Med'an and Cho'gall in the Temple of Ahn'Qiraj.

[Forumchibi]

She's not just considered a goddess by Night Elf culture. She's been directly stated to be a deity by Blizzard themselves

"One of Azeroth's few full deities, Elune is the goddess of the moon."

She's categorized on an old page that you bring out of archives to be a goddess, a page that I doubt was altered since it was first created with WoW's release. There would have been no reason to update her description at the time since it wasn't relevant. She was simply the goddess of the Night Elves. Like every other unidentifiable wonder that exists in the world, you simply give it a name for what you have at the time. Then enter the Draenei and the Naaru who have otherworldly experience and say, "no, no, that's not a god you silly priestess, that's probably just a Naaru!"

Also, it would have confused anyone who was playing at the time and trying to find a general description of her if they had said, "a being of light revered by the Night Elves, but never actually seen before and who might have traveled through space to get here, followed by aliens on another ship and some orcs, and who may be an alien herself, but no one knows why or what she's doing or how she mated with a giant deer. However, 10 out of 10 Night Elves and cows prefer her over the tentacle monsters who call themselves gods."

That is not to say she is not in fact a goddess, but an outdated page that doesn't exist anymore isn't 100% proof that she is.

[DarkTZeratul]

Not quite true.

That was written as if by an inhabitant of Azeroth.

It really wasn't. The entire Encyclopedia was written from a completely external point of view.

She's categorized on an old page that you bring out of archives - before the introduction of the Draenei and the Naaru - to be a goddess.

The Encyclopedia came out AFTER Burning Crusade was released. It even has a full section on the blood elves.

[HatredAU]

I don't think the naaru are at the power level of the titans, so no, elune is not the most powerful.

[Eats Compost]

The Encyclopedia came out AFTER Burning Crusade was released. It even has a full section on the blood elves.

It's still worth noting that it's an outdated source that's been taken down.

Edit: The page on gods is also written from the perspective of C'thun still not having been defeated.

[DarkTZeratul]

It's still worth noting that it's an outdated source that's been taken down.

Only because the entire website got overhauled. Do you consider the old short stories outdated sources to be disregarded simply because they no longer appear on the website? What about the troll compendium, or the bestiaries for the various expansions? Or the feature on the lore of Ulduar's bosses?

[Zardi]

I like the theory about Elune being an Old God that corrupts the Elves... That would make 'her' into a powerful entity, rivalling with the Titans' strength; while also explaining why she wouldn't have any interest in fighting the foes of mankind - focusing all efforts into growing stronger, while watching the competition fall

[Forumchibi]

It really wasn't. The entire Encyclopedia was written from a completely external point of view.

The Encyclopedia came out AFTER Burning Crusade was released. It even has a full section on the blood elves.

I realized that and updated my post, and my point still stands. At the time, there was no reason to change her description, it was an undisputed fact that Night Elves worshipped her as a goddess and we did not have any other information about Elune. It was always simply assumed as the powerful, revered, and worshipped being she was that Elune was a goddess, and we had no reason to question it.

Then the Draenei come along, and start saying otherwise, but there's still at this point in time no reason to change the pages, because we still don't have actual proof that Elune is a Naaru unless Velen confirms it. Yet without his confirmation, there is no longer 100% proof that she is a goddess, and now we have a reason to question it.

[Eats Compost]

Only because the entire website got overhauled. Do you consider the old short stories outdated sources to be disregarded simply because they no longer appear on the website? What about the troll compendium, or the bestiaries for the various expansions? Or the feature on the lore of Ulduar's bosses?

Knowing how retcon-happy Blizzard is - and that this explanation of gods predates significant exposition about the Old Gods and Titans, as well as written from the perspective of C'thun still being current content - I'd say taking an already-vague definition of gods word-for-word might not be the best way to get to the bottom of this. Even if we take that article word-for-word, it still defines gods very poorly.

Also, didn't the Encyclopedia come out in 2006, before BC?

[purebalance]

It really wasn't. The entire Encyclopedia was written from a completely external point of view.

The Encyclopedia came out AFTER Burning Crusade was released. It even has a full section on the blood elves.

Everything you read is supposed to be as YOU being someone living on Azeroth so yes it was. It was written as what information currently existing to people of Azeroth have about specific things. Tell me what it said about Kael if it was written in an omniscient sense AFTER burning crusade.

It also was not written after BC. It dates back to 2006 which was a year prior to BC which came out Jan 2007.

So once again nothing in that is written in an omniscient sense. It is written in a sense of historical accounts, folklore, and things that people had heard ON AZEROTH

[derpkitteh]

From what I've gained reading quest text in WoW. The titans did in fact kill one Old God upon arriving on Azeroth: Y'shaarj. The evil that was unleashed upon the world upon his death was so terrible, they chose to imprison the other Old Gods, including C'Thun, Yogg Saron and N'Zoth (I believe there's one more unamed Old God as well still). The Old Gods' biggest strength is their ability to corrupt anything, even while imprisoned, if given enough time. The Titans, themselves, and probably the Naaru are not safe from the corruption of the Old Gods.

Only thing I don't understand is if Pandaria has had so much corruption and issues (the Sha) since Y'Sharrj's death, why hasn't there been any fallout from us killing C'Thun and Yogg Saron? Does it just take time? We kill a couple more of those things and is there just going to be massive Dark Age of corruption everywhere? I'm curious where they take this...

we haven't killed an old god. we beat up parts of them, and that messed them up, but they're not dead. c'thun is about as close to dead as we have gotten an old god, and that's only because he just about died in the war with the titans.

[Golden Yak]

Elune's power is quite ill-defined.

I agree. What I have in mind when I think 'true god' may be very different from what the warcraft universe considers to be a 'true god.'

I tend to put Elune and any other beings at her level at 'Old God' level (I consider the Old Gods to be true gods as well). In my mind this puts them, individually, above titans (again, individually). Their influence may be potentially great, but is usually subtle, slow, and far reaching.

This may turn out to be completely wrong.