Patch 5.2 Warlock discussion

[Deleted]

Because this is without the nerfs ?

already deleted my post. got really confused by the carts. nvm.

[Bonkura]

Is the affli supremacy using a haste build or regular mastery heavy? Because having a pet should favor haste really strong over mastery.
Besides that, on pure singletarget you can use sacrifice, hope they stop nerfing it now..

Not really. Pets scale pretty bad with Affliction for secondary stats so haste and mastery values don't change much at all. You don't need 5.2 data to see this, since the only change with a GoSup build is the Haunt buff.

[Apero]

Not really. Pets scale pretty bad with Affliction for secondary stats so haste and mastery values don't change much at all. You don't need 5.2 data to see this, since the only change with a GoSup build is the Haunt buff.

I simmed with 5.1 simcraft using supremacy, and the statrating was Int: 4.5 Mastery 2.48 Haste: 3.02 (!) . And there was no hastecap near.(regular 7000 haste, 8500 mastery build) Thats a pretty big difference to GoSac if you ask me.

[Bonkura]

Try even out the value of haste and mastery and come back with your results. Because my own results have been different from that with haste just slightly ahead.

Edit: Here's my results http://i.imgur.com/SAysc7z.jpg

[Delvaz]

Here's more charts using the latest PTR data (Immolate/Conflag down to +15%, Sac down to 30%, Haunt debuff +5%). Please remember that PTR_*** means it's PTR data, and otherwise it's how it is on live (5.1).

Also there's a margin of error of like 200 dps so please don't pay attention to minor differences like that.

Where are you getting a 5.2 simluationcraft build? I would like to try some of this myself.

[Deleted]

Vizier it's because they get to the boss before your tank, and as the boss is fixed they are on the receiving end of the first melee swings, it's easily enough managed by paying attention and making sure your pet switches to the echo rather than following the boss between platforms. Same can happen on Elegon if the tank switch is sloppy, but that's as bad for any melee as it is your pet. Never had an issue on Sha or Feng.

But again, what sense does it make to double the punishment of using pets with low DPS and inconvenience?

And damn, have people really forgotten how to manage pets already? I dread to think what would happen if KJC got nerfed and Affliction Warlocks were expected to use Fel Flame on the move again...

I mean HC Elegon, the LoS wall really screws them up.

I said the pet dies during Attenuation, not because the boss hits it instead of the tank. Our tanks take warlock portals to the next platform, and I obviously put my pet on the echo instead of following the actual boss. It never actually dies when we're DPSing the Echo, whenever it has died we were on the actual boss.

[whi]

There's a new version available on their site now - http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft/

[nightfalls]

I suppose it's somewhat subjective, but warlocks have pretty much always been considered a "pet class" alongside hunters. Look at the wording on Blizz's own page about them:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/class/warlock

"AURAS, BLESSINGS, AND SEALS"
"MIND CONTROL"
"RAGE: As warriors deal or take damage, their rage grows"
"STANCES: By changing their stance during battle, warriors can adjust their focus in combat, dealing greater damage, defending more carefully... or striking a balance between the two."
"TOTEMS: Shaman can choose to deploy a wide array of different totems, each providing allies with a unique effect, including... faster attacks, and more."

How much of that crap is actually up to date...?

[Apero]

Try even out the value of haste and mastery and come back with your results. Because my own results have been different from that with haste just slightly ahead.

Went with 10.5k haste, 4.5k mastery, statratings still: int: 1.0 mastery: 0.55 haste: 0.58.

1k Dps more compared to the regular reforge sim before. I will go full haste with observer this evening, just for the lolz. Will be demo when 5.2 hits anyway. (wish they fixed the felguard bug already..)

[Jessicka]

From what I'm gathering, people are saying there are mechanics that are bugged with a pet, which doesn't make it harder or more challenging, but more frustrating, because you have no control over it when it happens (LoS on Elegon, not getting damage buff on Protectors, etc.).

Otherwise, say if GoSup and GoSac are equal, it should be like this:

With GoSup, you do 100k, and your pets do 20k for a total of 120k damage.
With GoSac, you do 120k, and your pets do 0 for a total of 120k damage.

Sounds fair, right? But what if you don't execute your rotation perfectly, and only do 80% of that damage (lag issues, movement, used cooldown at wrong point, etc.):

With GoSup, you do 80k, and your pets do 20k for a total of 100k damage.
With GoSac, you do 96k, and your pets do 0 for a total of 96k damage.

GoSac is only efficient in cases where the fight has mechanics that dramatically improves the damage of the player, but not the pet. This can be fights with damage buffs or multiple targets, which is basically every fights these days... which is why we're seeing these nerf. It's not because GoSac is easier to play.

I think there's merit in your argument, but I think you're perhaps overstating just how much movement or errors will cause DPS loss, especially while we have KJC in it's present form. Pets do have issues in certain circumstances, and they do require management in most encounters. Overall, I really don't think there's all that much in it, and which will have the most impact will vary from encounter to encounter.

The nerf in and of itself though is broadly because Sac is just straight up too powerful for Affliction on live - so much so that nerfing it has led to a need to buff Haunt to compensate so using a pet can actually keep up and hit the target figures. I think that's the bigger point people are missing.

So is managing a pet because of terrible AI, pathing issues and bugging a lot of the time compelling gameplay?? No its just goddam frustrating!!

I rolled a lock, because it was a pet class. I loved running with a pet as it brought that extra dimension to the class and great utility in the pvp environment. But over the years expansion after expansion and as raid fight mechanics steadly got more complicated the pet design system seems to have not kept up, yes they got avoidance which has helped massivley for aoe damage but the actual real issues like pathing, target switching, health pools and AI haven't changed at all.

Enter Cataclysm and fights like Alysrazor and Deathwing to name two of the worst and a lot of people had had enough. I for one switched class, granted not just because of the frustrating pet issues but it did play a part. Now take all those pissed off locks who remember all the years of mongo pet behaviour and offer them a way to not have to put up with it and buff their damage in lieu of the pet and is it any wonder than GoSac is so popular???

Yes blizzard wants us to use pets, but it also wants to cater to the players who want to sacrifice their pet for power, it fits with the lore, the problem is that the AI. If both talents in a vacuum produced exactly the same dps i would hazard a guess that the majority would run with GoSac purely for not having to put up with the AI, leaving pet lovers who are only being punished because of the AI itself, so by that logic the only way to make us use pets is the nerf the shit out of GoSac to the point where its such a loss were forced to not choose it. If they are going to do that they should just straight out delete the talent and draw a line in the sand.

People who pick GoSup because they want to run with a pet should not be punished with lower dps, all the talents should be within an acceptable % margin, however they are punished with having to put up with the terrible AI which will in a lot of instances cause them to under perform to a GoSac lock because its a passive damage buff.

Conclusion: If both talents produce the same dps in sims, the majority with go with GoSac because of the pet AI; therefore fix the pet AI then the people who want to use a pet can do so without a dps loss and the people who don't want to use a pet can do so for whatever goddam reason they want as it wont matter you wont do anymore damage.

So you're suggesting the answer to poor encounter mechanics is a talent to avoid them, rather than to fix the encounter mechanics? Warlocks are not the only class with pet using specs (Hunters don't even have a no-pet option) so I don't think Sac is the answer to that, or that those encounters are the reason for Sac to be in the game.

[Bonkura]

There's a new version available on their site now - http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft/

"Patch 5.1.0 Release 11"

[Jessicka]

"Patch 5.1.0 Release 11"

Not checked, but guess that's based on what's accounted for in the 'Live' and 'PTR' options in the dropdown.

[Nemah]

How much of that crap is actually up to date...?

Fair enough, but c'mon....as a warlock veteran the class has spent much more of its time as a "pet class" than not. Demons / minions have always been something that was somewhat unique about the class or defined it. What we do with those minions is another issue.

I've enjoyed being petless, don't get me wrong, for many of the reasons cited in this thread. I'd even say it's been rather refreshing.

That being said, I take some little issue with the idea that warlocks aren't a "pet class" and don't think it's the end of the world if we go back to using them again. Despite it being nice, I'm far more used to micromanaging my pet than I am being without it.

But just as a point in case, this whole change smells exactly the same as it did back in what, patch 3.0-ish? Everyone sac'd their pet and Blizzard took issue with it because it was overpowered and didn't line up with their collective vision of the class. Seems awfully familiar.

[Tramzh]

So you're suggesting the answer to poor encounter mechanics is a talent to avoid them, rather than to fix the encounter mechanics? Warlocks are not the only class with pet using specs (Hunters don't even have a no-pet option) so I don't think Sac is the answer to that, or that those encounters are the reason for Sac to be in the game.

I think you are getting somewhere. This is EXACTLY. WHY. NOBODY(which have their main goal of actually doing a lot of dps). wants to be forced back to use the pets. Blizz simply do not fix fight mechanics. We are almost done with 5.1 and they still haven't fixed pet/doomguard bug on Elegon, amazing isn't it?

[nightfalls]

But just as a point in case, this whole change smells exactly the same as it did back in what, patch 3.0-ish? Everyone sac'd their pet and Blizzard took issue with it because it was overpowered and didn't line up with their collective vision of the class. Seems awfully familiar.

Right and look at where said "collective vision" of the class ended up back then, we got Cataclysm.

[Bonkura]

Went with 10.5k haste, 4.5k mastery, statratings still: int: 1.0 mastery: 0.55 haste: 0.58.

1k Dps more compared to the regular reforge sim before. I will go full haste with observer this evening, just for the lolz. Will be demo when 5.2 hits anyway. (wish they fixed the felguard bug already..)

It's going to be different on multi target fights. But yeah, you might be right regarding single target. I've not tried to make extreme reforges like that.

Not checked, but guess that's based on what's accounted for in the 'Live' and 'PTR' options in the dropdown.

True... never thought of that. ^^;;

[Nemah]

Right and look at where said "collective vision" of the class ended up back then, we got Cataclysm.

I'm not arguing with you, sir. Though I have to admit I enjoyed my warlock in Cata (though I've mostly enjoyed my warlock for several years now), the class has the dubious honor of being one of the most tweaked / messed with classes in the game. Why? Who knows. Though I have my moments, I'm not arrogant enough to say that I know what to do with Blizzard's intellectual property better than they do.

Maybe I've just become complacent in my warlock old age. The class being screwed with is nothing new and not surprising anymore. I've just settled into wait and see mode.

[Ezzyo]

After heroic testing on the most recent build as destro / demo, I find myself pretty happy with where locks will end up in 5.2. With the three specs so close, you can respec for the encounter if you wanted to, and play the spec to it's strengths.

That and 4 pc t15 demo is rebonkers.

[Jessicka]

I think you are getting somewhere. This is EXACTLY. WHY. NOBODY(which have their main goal of actually doing a lot of dps). wants to be forced back to use the pets. Blizz simply do not fix fight mechanics. We are almost done with 5.1 and they still haven't fixed pet/doomguard bug on Elegon, amazing isn't it?

They did however fix Majordomo and the ICC buff issues quite quickly. The Doomguard thing effects you regardless of talent build, so that's something else entirely but I believe the Infernal works fine, if for less damage (but more than none if the DG bugs). But yeah, "this encounter causes my pet to bug" is, and always will be an encounter, not class design issue because it is something more than Warlocks need fixed.

And yeah, no need to invoke a majority, everybody or nobody. What everyone supposedly thinks, even if you had evidence to support it, doesn't actually mean anything.

Right and look at where said "collective vision" of the class ended up back then, we got Cataclysm.

We were in pretty good shape in Wrath though to be fair, and we weren't the only victims in Cataclysm - anyone with an active sub suffered, the whole expansion was just a rush job of sucky filler content. And of the issues we did have as a class, pets were pretty low down the list (and again those we did have with them were not confined to Warlocks).

[pokeadott]

To the people claiming that we shouldn't play a lock if we didn't want a pet class, please just stop. Wanting to play a lock and not use a demon has been a part of our class for much longer than GoSac has existed.

I rolled a lock in vanilla. I leveled to 60 by Demo-Saccing a VW for the HP regen boost (after the first 5 points in Improved Corruption tbf - go go 2 sec cast time). I raided MC/BWL as DemoSac-Destro. I leveled to 70 with a sacced succubus + DoTs. I raided Kara/SSC as SM/Ruin with a pet finally! Ofc he was on passive the entire time as a Dark Pact bitch. I raided BT Destro with a sacced succubus.

Locks as as a pet class was really introduced in LK. Some of us have played a LONG time without a pet, and we were thrilled about having that option again. If pets weren't so clunky ("pet travelling time, getting stuck, not attacking") I'd be OK with them. Give all our pets the hunter speed boosts, change their attack patterns so they attack the target from any angle instead of trying to find its ass, and treat all attacks that pets do as if they were behind the target - as a starter list anyway. Until then, I'll gladly take my GoSac at equal dps to GoSxx thank you.