Patch 5.2 Warlock discussion

[xskarma]

Just to be clear, they "just" removed the extra Ember awarded when you did the final blow, you still get your Ember back if the target dies within 5 sec.

Ahhhhh. You had me worried there for a bit, I thought they took away all ember regen. Hmm, well still shitty, cause it takes away the easy build up we had with adds. And all those extra embers were going towards extra damage with more SB or CB. Losing that is going to mean a damage nerf to what you can put out regardless. (even if there was probably some over capping occuring with this mechanic at times)

[Zathrendar]

I play destro lock lol and i am prob the only one who will admit we are OP too little offensive buttons makes our few spells hit way to much, and its too easy to play and own people, i would like to see some cd/healing nerfs espeicaly for 5.2 so i can play destro without feeling faceroll.

The spec has 4 main spells. That is roughly the same as other specs in the game. The rest is just a-contextual opinion. It's pretty common to simply post without any evidence random numbers and strings of assertions.

[Jessicka]

the question is: why a "talent situational" and not a "simply talent"? is a medical prescription to have a talent situational ?
Warlock in pvp have trouble vs all classes atm, without blood fear. Ok, atm blood fear is "OP" (every classes in game have 1-2 ability op...), but a rework to make it > cast on target, last X sec > target hit warlock with the debuff > target run in horror... is a good idea to make a spell viable, defensive, no OP, and bypass the issue with pet/demon/hunter trap/aberration.

A solution for pvp is new blood horror "on touch" vs melee attack (ptr) AND carrion swarm baseline (likewise cone of cold), + slowing effect likewise old shadowflame spell. This spell can make viable pvp vs melee.

Unboun will cost too many health and one millisecond afterward a warlock can take another stun/CC and burning rush is a talent cool in 5.2 but health cost is exhasperated and this design is very veru poor, for me is bettere a CD like rogue's sprint and a minor healt's cost.

Because there are no cookie cutters anymore. There might be a talent on each tier you 'mostly use' and fall back on, but there shouldn't be a tier which you never consider switching. BF as you want it (for PvP at least) would never be switched out - just as is the case now.

[Deleted]

They had better have some pretty DAMN NICE buffs for Destro in the PvE balance pass to make up for these (relatively) huge nerfs to Destros damage.
- 4% Cleave Damage
- 33% reduction in AoE range
- No extra ember back from Shadowburn sniping

Yeah it will take pretty consequent buffs to make it on par with Aff, from the current situation on PTR. On Live on adds/cleave fight Destro can barely compete with Aff, and a good part of the DPS is overkill (17% on my Tsulong log ?). Now with the GoSac nerf (that doesn't affect Aff in those situations if I'm not mistaken, since this is mostly DoTs), and no way to gain extra Embers (while Aff still gets 4 each time they drain soul a dying mob), the last niche of Destro goes away...

Meanwhile, I have an Arcane mage in my PTR test group that does 400k dps during the Bloodlust and can almost maintain 180k DPS single target... ok

[Kildragon]

Just asking, but how close are you to 1k rating? Since again I'm reading a PvP post that's saying exactly the opposite of how it is in reality.

2k in 3s, I know, I know, not that high. 2300 in RBGs without win trading.

Lots of survivability and a lot of defensive cooldowns, do you even believe your own words? In cataclysm, our survivability was as good as it is now, if we would have a 70% uptime on both unending resolve and dark regeneration.
I'm sorry for having to burst your bubble, but our survivability is utterly shit, almost every single spec has better survivability then we currently have.

But they don't... Mages fall over after any kind of damage, and really are kind of useless after the second Ice Block is forced, which is hilariously easy since they have no passive damage reduction whatsoever. Honestly, any kind of quick swap to a Mage while the healer is CC'ed and he has to block. Other classes aren't that great in survivability either. DK's get swapped to and die instantly, Rets have shit for survivability, Boomkins get tunneled all day, Enhance AND Elemental Shamans just get shit on, Rogues die as soon as Cloak is down, and the only real survival CD that Hunters have is Deterrence. The most durable classes are SPriest and Warriors, which *gasp* are also two of the strongest classes in game right now.

So I guess you're right, if you're comparing Warlocks to those two classes, yes we don't have much in terms of survivability. But last I checked, Warriors were getting a hefty nerf on Defensive Stance and SPriest healing is getting nerfed, on top of Dispersion being able to be locked out now.

As for our own survivability, way to go overboard in an attempt to make a point. Back in Wrath we had some negligible amount of extra amour from DA, received 30% extra heals and if glyphed took 25% less damage while Soul Link was up. No defensive CDs, no instant fear, nothing. Just those two things. DA wasn't even on 100% of the time, and getting caught in a CC chain while sitting in Fel Armor meant you were fucked royally. The passive heal from Corruption damage was nice, but it rarely saved lives and did nothing if you were swapped on. Sure, we had some more passive defenses back then, but people really like to look at the past with rose tinted glasses.

If you want to look at the actual numbers, as of 5.2, we will have lost 15% passive damage reduction, getting 10% from Fel Armor down from the 25% from Soul Link. We lost 20% healing taken, getting 10% from Fel Armor down from the 30% from talented DA. We can still glyph Corruption for the Siphon Life, although it's not quite as strong and lastly we lost the minor heal from Haunt. We gained 10% extra health, our level 15 tier, our level 45 tier, Unending Resolve, and Healthstones that actually heal for something now.

So overall, our survivability really isn't that bad at all. We lost some passives but we gained some active CDs. I for one welcome the change, although I do wish we would get our old Soul Link back to provide some kind of passive damage reduction in the tier where the two other choices are active damage reduction.

As of damage, it's a joke as well, especially affliction pressure is a joke right now. Destro burst ain't great either. You can pull off a 120k chaosbolt by burning everything and not getting interrupted, which doesn't happen that often, and for the rest you are just tickling your enemy.

Destruction burst is still amazing if you play with the right team. Just remember that MLS with a Destro lock made it to the finals at blizzcon. The problem is getting not CC'ed while trying to get a 2 second cast off with CDs up. Set it up right, and you have the damage though. Not that I would run Destro in 3s anyways, I'd much rather go into RBGs and shit on an entire team.

As for Affliction, the spread pressure is actually quite disgusting, especially with Dark Soul and Trinket. Take into consideration the healing nerf, and Affliction can put out amazing pressure on an enemy team. Then again you're just going to link me your post again, claiming I'm an idiot, suck at the game and don't know jack shit about it. Face a good Affliction lock in 3s with a good team, then have fun healing that.

And people complain about warlocks because they are actually in a really terrible state right now, especially at higher ranks where people know what to do against you.

Really? Last I checked, people have been QQing about how terrible we are for years. Go onto every single class forum and you will see it filled with QQ about how much the class sucks. Even the Hunter forums are filled with whiners that threaten to reroll if Blizz doesn't listen to them RIGHT MEOW. Warlocks may not be the greatest class atm, but it's really only a few too strong classes that make us, along with every other class not in the top 4 royal classes, look weak.

[Deleted]

I can not comprehend why they nerf blood fear, but buff deep freeze....because mages needed it?

[Feelsgood]

I can not comprehend why they nerf blood fear, but buff deep freeze....because mages needed it?

"A King always must be..."

[Tya]

I play destro lock lol and i am prob the only one who will admit we are OP too little offensive buttons makes our few spells hit way to much, and its too easy to play and own people, i would like to see some cd/healing nerfs espeicaly for 5.2 so i can play destro without feeling faceroll.

You've clearly never had a half-awake warrior sat on you with their 6 separate, sub-60 sec cooldown, non-DRing interrupts.

[villie]

But useful against those that provide us with the biggest issues. It does not replace Fear, which can still be used against the affore mentioned ranged classes.

Really?? so whats stopping a ranged class melee'ing the warlock to eat the debuff then carry on casting at range, you need to start thinking about how to circumvent the ability instead of the benefits it provides, that's how players that pvp seriously think, put yourself in your opponents teams shoe's then think of all the options you have to counter it, then you will see how unbalanced this ability is in terms of pros and cons.

[Sylonaz]

I'd like to see how the T15 set bonus for Demo is going to compare to Affliction.

[Nerraw]

Speaking of T15, seeing as the Normal set is available now it should be possible to test if pet fury generation is affected.

[Jessicka]

Really?? so whats stopping a ranged class melee'ing the warlock to eat the debuff then carry on casting at range, you need to start thinking about how to circumvent the ability instead of the benefits it provides, that's how players that pvp seriously think, put yourself in your opponents teams shoe's then think of all the options you have to counter it, then you will see how unbalanced this ability is in terms of pros and cons.

It's already been said that in all probability you're going to be using this reactively. At what point is a Ranged or Healer going to get a melee swing in there before their Melee teammate to eat a 4 second Horror, and how the fuck is that going to benefit their team to get a kill? Because think about it, you still took some of the pressure off, so if they managed that, and won because of it then *slow clap* Well played sirs. Well played.

This ability is -not- going to see a surge in ranged classes hitting you in melee. What I am interested in however, is whether Touch of Chaos procs it, because for many other intents and purposes in the game, it is counting as a melee swing.

[villie]

It's already been said that in all probability you're going to be using this reactively. At what point is a Ranged or Healer going to get a melee swing in there before their Melee teammate to eat a 4 second Horror, and how the fuck is that going to benefit their team to get a kill? Because think about it, you still took some of the pressure off, so if they managed that, and won because of it then *slow clap* Well played sirs. Well played.

This ability is -not- going to see a surge in ranged classes hitting you in melee. What I am interested in however, is whether Touch of Chaos procs it, because for many other intents and purposes in the game, it is counting as a melee swing.

I didn't say it would be a viable or good tactic, my point was that it was possible due to the inherent weakness of how the talent is designed, and honestly if its easliy done ppl WILL do this in arena to cheese you, slow clap all you like you will still have lost simple as that, fuck the moral highground, war is war, and second place dont get to fuck the prom queen . Granted reactive use will be the way to go i agree, but this only highlights another weakness in the talent. If you are being trained you cant pick which target to peel, KFC for example you could end up horroring a stampede pet and not the main pet kill commanding you or the warrior balls deep in your ass. The talent needs looking at, we all agree its far to weak to be a talent in the first place. Interesting about TOC tho, i would think it should proc it being melee as well.

[Nicola]

But they don't... Mages fall over after any kind of damage, and really are kind of useless after the second Ice Block is forced, which is hilariously easy since they have no passive damage reduction whatsoever. Honestly, any kind of quick swap to a Mage while the healer is CC'ed and he has to block. Other classes aren't that great in survivability either. DK's get swapped to and die instantly, Rets have shit for survivability, Boomkins get tunneled all day, Enhance AND Elemental Shamans just get shit on, Rogues die as soon as Cloak is down, and the only real survival CD that Hunters have is Deterrence. The most durable classes are SPriest and Warriors, which *gasp* are also two of the strongest classes in game right now.

So I guess you're right, if you're comparing Warlocks to those two classes, yes we don't have much in terms of survivability. But last I checked, Warriors were getting a hefty nerf on Defensive Stance and SPriest healing is getting nerfed, on top of Dispersion being able to be locked out now.

As for our own survivability, way to go overboard in an attempt to make a point. Back in Wrath we had some negligible amount of extra amour from DA, received 30% extra heals and if glyphed took 25% less damage while Soul Link was up. No defensive CDs, no instant fear, nothing. Just those two things. DA wasn't even on 100% of the time, and getting caught in a CC chain while sitting in Fel Armor meant you were fucked royally. The passive heal from Corruption damage was nice, but it rarely saved lives and did nothing if you were swapped on. Sure, we had some more passive defenses back then, but people really like to look at the past with rose tinted glasses.

If you want to look at the actual numbers, as of 5.2, we will have lost 15% passive damage reduction, getting 10% from Fel Armor down from the 25% from Soul Link. We lost 20% healing taken, getting 10% from Fel Armor down from the 30% from talented DA. We can still glyph Corruption for the Siphon Life, although it's not quite as strong and lastly we lost the minor heal from Haunt. We gained 10% extra health, our level 15 tier, our level 45 tier, Unending Resolve, and Healthstones that actually heal for something now.

So overall, our survivability really isn't that bad at all. We lost some passives but we gained some active CDs. I for one welcome the change, although I do wish we would get our old Soul Link back to provide some kind of passive damage reduction in the tier where the two other choices are active damage reduction.

Alright... you are messing up survivability with durability.

-While a mage is squishy as well, they have ice barrier allowing them to survive quick switches easier, access to plenty of snares to keep melee away from them and ofcourse they have blink, giving them the ability to break stuns and making gaps. ( The stunbreaking part is a big + for them ).
-Death knights have a decent survivability when they switch into blood presence, but you are right, they are somewhat squishy, however, they are getting a massive buff to it.
-Retribution isn't to bulky either right now, however, they offer a good amount of abilities that can be used to safe teammates. And they are getting a really nice buff to their healing, making them harder to kill.
-Boomkins are barely viable, however, they clearly have an easier time to survive. Not only do they have more passive damage reduction then we do, they have access to amazing mobility, hybrid healing and bearform. The fact they would get tunneled all day long doesn't mean their survivability is shit. It just means they are an easier target to tunnel then say a mage.
-Rogues are getting a massive buff to their survivability, but saying they die without cloak shows how little you actually knows about them.
-Shamans, well, they have a 30% damage reduction every minute, for 15sec. They have their tier 1 talent as well, tremor totem, grounding totem, earthgrab totem and lets not forget ghost wolf. Enhacement gets healing from wolves while elemental gets thunderstorm.

Being durable is one thing, being able to survive another. Mages, druids, rogues, priests, they are all given the tools to survive with their squishyness, we didn't get those tools. All we have are our longer cooldowns, and demonic circle. A nice spell, allows us to escape melee, but it doesn't allow us to keep em away from us.
Active cooldowns are a good thing, granted you only need to use them when you need them. Too often I've had to use my cooldowns to survive a switch on me, when noone was popping cooldowns.

Also, let me remind you that healthstones only have 3 charges. Not much of a deal in short games, but in longer games you'll be forced to make new stones. Not always that easy when you get tunneled.

Destruction burst is still amazing if you play with the right team. Just remember that MLS with a Destro lock made it to the finals at blizzcon. The problem is getting not CC'ed while trying to get a 2 second cast off with CDs up. Set it up right, and you have the damage though. Not that I would run Destro in 3s anyways, I'd much rather go into RBGs and shit on an entire team.

Yes, and Adouken is perhaps the best destruction warlock in the world. And you are forgetting one thing, warlocks got nerfed pretty hard between now and blizzcon.
The BWC was before 5.1 was released. Chaosbolt got nerfed pretty hard, our selfhealing took a big hit as well, our curses got nerfed, rain of fire no longer stuns, etc.
The burst we have now is rather pathetic, it's one 100k+ crit, 2 with havoc, and that's it. While a big hit is deadly on targets with low health, you completely rely on your partner on getting low health targets and on peeling so you can get that chaosbolt off.

As for Affliction, the spread pressure is actually quite disgusting, especially with Dark Soul and Trinket. Take into consideration the healing nerf, and Affliction can put out amazing pressure on an enemy team. Then again you're just going to link me your post again, claiming I'm an idiot, suck at the game and don't know jack shit about it. Face a good Affliction lock in 3s with a good team, then have fun healing that.

You mean only with dark soul and trinket? Without cooldowns, the damage is to be laughed at. A single warrior focusing on a single target brings more pressure then an affliction warlock dotting the whole team up. Without cooldowns up, if it wasn't because of blood fear, we could be completely ignored.
The healer nerf indeed made affliction bring a bit more pressure, but not even close enough to what it should bring.

Really? Last I checked, people have been QQing about how terrible we are for years. Go onto every single class forum and you will see it filled with QQ about how much the class sucks. Even the Hunter forums are filled with whiners that threaten to reroll if Blizz doesn't listen to them RIGHT MEOW. Warlocks may not be the greatest class atm, but it's really only a few too strong classes that make us, along with every other class not in the top 4 royal classes, look weak.

People have been QQing that we were shit without a healer, which was true. Rest of QQ was about stupid mechanics we had, that needed a change, like shadow embrace. And unlike now, warlocks did very well in arena, now we're being shit on by about every class.

[Jessicka]

People have been QQing that we were shit without a healer, which was true. Rest of QQ was about stupid mechanics we had, that needed a change, like shadow embrace. And unlike now, warlocks did very well in arena, now we're being shit on by about every class.

This is interesting. Shadow Embrace was deeply unpopular, but it's replacement in the form of MG is actually imho worse.

[Gohzerlock]

This is interesting. Shadow Embrace was deeply unpopular, but it's replacement in the form of MG is actually imho worse.

If shadow embrace was a buff and not a debuff it would've worked fine.

Also KJC studderstep has been fixed...

Soul leach kinda underwhelming.

Shadowburn ember gen nerf kinda hurts.

[Nicola]

This is interesting. Shadow Embrace was deeply unpopular, but it's replacement in the form of MG is actually imho worse.

Well, I don't like either, and while Shadow Embrace was a pretty retarded mechanic, it had less impact on PvP then MG has now.
Since it only was a 15% increase on 3 stacks, there was no real need to take it, hence the reason why it was so unpopular for PvP. MG on the other hand gives ~150% extra damage from dots. And because of that, our dots do shitty damage and we lack the pressure we need.

[xskarma]

Speaking of T15, seeing as the Normal set is available now it should be possible to test if pet fury generation is affected.

Just tried it, both naked and with 4 piece T15 hitting a dummy I get 12 fury per special attack on the Wrathguard. Doesn't seem to effect it, sadly.

[Gohzerlock]

Warlock island aborted lol

[Phoenexis]

Just wanted to point out a few things:
-Mages currently have more passive defense than warlocks, lol
-You cannot refer to the Battlenet championships since it was full of players that qualified with Cataclysm comps, so basically affliction warlocks finding themselves in a crap-hole respeccing to Destro/Demo and playing a new season of which nobody actually knew much