5.2 Shaman changes

[Zapgreen]

Lol I'm rather curious about what they are going to say about Shaman in the 3 or 4 part Class Review post.

me too, especially after that slap in the face from his tweets.

I never received my invitation to the BBQ damnit!

How long do you think it'll be before we find out, like will they post updates as they get them? or are we going to have to wait a week between reviews

[Arctorus]

I have to agree with Endus, the things some of you are complaining about are ridiculous. If haste gets devalued then we can just gear for mastery, which we're in a particularly great position to do so since their relative values are very close. Consider many other classes if their main secondary stat got so heavily devalued that they had to pick up a different one, for some classes the gap between them is substantial. Not only will we see little change, but reforge/regearing into mastery will increase the value of the legendary meta and BL buffs.

With that being said, the thing that does concern me is that they buffed Primal Elementalist but then pushed us into a situation where we're going to be gearing for stats that don't affect our Fire Ele. Plus the one spell we do have that benefits very well from haste, Elemental Blast, competes in the same talent tier. I would imagine a relatively simple fix would be to add our mastery percentage as some sort of scaling damage coefficient for the Fire Ele, since Elemental Blast scales arguably well with all 3 of our main stats.

Currently my setup for raiding is to take Ele Blast / EoE for stationary, single target fights, PE/EM for high movement, single target fights, and PE/EoE for high movement aoe fights (H Wind Lord). Since I gear into haste, my stats allow me to seamlessly transition between them. I'm wondering how much this is going to change in the next tier.

For the first few weeks, I would imagine EM/PE is going to easily be the best talents since EM is going to align perfectly with a 3 minute Ascendance and I may even keep Glyph of Fire Elemental so I can keep hasted Fire Eles on cooldown. There's going to be some beautiful synergy for a time until I get my 4 set and the legendary meta, which dicks over the timing of EM/FE/Asc and forces us to gear out of haste. I wonder how we will sim without the 4 set. With a few perfectly stated pieces, might just be able to skip the 4 set all together since tier usually forces us to accept sub-par secondary stats anyways.

[Kralljin]

If Haste loses enough value overall that we want to Reforge it away, that's a good thing for the importance of BL to us, and for improving the value of the meta. That's a big part of why we might want to Reforge it away.

Haste caps are based on hitting certain Haste levels. If you get more Haste from your spec and such, you need less of it on gear to hit the same cap.

Yeah but if you hit it regardless then Haste loses value, which quite possible with the Ilvl we reach.

And some Specs simply do not hit this Cap that early or aren't nearly as much affected as we are by early caps.

Throw Specs like Fire, Balance, Affli and such Haste on the table, they aren't getting that much out of Haste at first as Elemental does but as soon as Elemental hit's it's Caps, they will leave you behind by a mile.

Haste simply loses too much value as Elemental as compared to other specs.

We've gotten other buffs, particularly the one to LvB in 5.2 as a stand-out example.

That's not a Dps Buff, it's not really relevant for a discussion about Dps buffs.

And for Shamanism; this is why specialization passives were created in the first place, to be fundamental passives that allowed tuning of each spec individually, without affecting the others. If you want to buff Elemental's damage via Lightning Bolt but not affect Enhancement or Resto, you tweak Shamanism. Using the tuning knob they built into the game for that purpose is not somehow a failure of design.

You miss the point.

They buffed Shamanism in the past, yet they had to buff Elemental again within the same expansion.

That's what i'm talking about, it's about using the same solution that didn't worked out too well in the past for the same issue in the past.

It's not "Bleh Shamanism buff is boring" it's "Bleh, just double the Shamanism buff and you save the change with the next patch".

It's the most obvious way to fix the broken pipe, but the most obvious way simply holds here not the long lasting solution to the problem.

The goal of those buffs that a spec get's in a decent dps position and hopefully stay there for a long time, Shamanism buffs just scream after "See you in 3 Months".

[Intrepid1]

Is there any numbers out saying which lvl 90 talent is best ? I'm not sure EM is all that great compared to Echo.

[Arctorus]

You miss the point.

They buffed Shamanism in the past, yet they had to buff Elemental again within the same expansion.

That's what i'm talking about, it's about using the same solution that didn't worked out too well in the past for the same issue in the past.

It's not "Bleh Shamanism buff is boring" it's "Bleh, just double the Shamanism buff and you save the change with the next patch".

It's the most obvious way to fix the broken pipe, but the most obvious way simply holds here not the long lasting solution to the problem.

The goal of those buffs that a spec get's in a decent dps position and hopefully stay there for a long time, Shamanism buffs just scream after "See you in 3 Months".

At the heart of the problem, I think it sounds like you want a reworking of the way Ele operates, otherwise why would it matter where they add our dps gain? All buffs and nerfs are temporary in the long-term, anything can change at any time. Look at how often Arcane mages, warlocks, and hunters have changed fundamentally over the last 3 years. Has it made them permanently better or worse? A buff is a buff, a nerf is a nerf, and the world moves on.

You're right about one thing, the goal of buffs is to get us in a decent position. How long we stay there depends on so many outside factors that trying to look for 1 solution to keep us at a fixed relative position is futile and shows a deep lack of understanding in how these relative positions work.

Say they give us some fantastic talent that buffs our dps by 20%, great, we're fixed forever! Then the next tier comes a long and a legendary is released that our dps doesn't scale well with (sound familiar?), then what? Was the talent a failure? No, our dps is dependent on a larger context that doesn't rely solely upon one factor.

[Endus]

Yeah but if you hit it regardless then Haste loses value, which quite possible with the Ilvl we reach.

And that doesn't matter.

It's losing value because we have so much Haste. That's not a bad thing, it just means we're hitting caps with less gear focused on Haste. Mastery's still a really strong stat.

That's not a Dps Buff, it's not really relevant for a discussion about Dps buffs.

Then the Elemental Oath buff, if you want a raw DPS increase.

The point remains; they aren't JUST tweaking Shamanism and leaving it at that, and claiming otherwise is basically a lie.

You miss the point.

They buffed Shamanism in the past, yet they had to buff Elemental again within the same expansion.

That's what i'm talking about, it's about using the same solution that didn't worked out too well in the past for the same issue in the past.

It's a tuning knob. This is what it's for. You can't use the past tweaks as "proof" of anything, since those were in Cataclysm, and pretty much everything was pretty significantly different at that time. 5.2 is a completely different context. If it's not enough, they can tune it again, because again, this is what Shamanism is for. The issue in the past wasn't that Shamanism couldn't fix the problem, it was that it wasn't changed enough, so they had to tweak it again.

This is also not an argument that pops up for anyone else. Balance isn't a "set and let it be" thing, they tweak the balance every major patch, and often in between. It's a balancing act, and that means making constant corrections.

[Arctorus]

Is there any numbers out saying which lvl 90 talent is best ? I'm not sure EM is all that great compared to Echo.

For which class? For Ele, EM is going to present some amazing synergy for any Ele shaman who doesn't have their 4 set.

[Intrepid1]

For which class? For Ele, EM is going to present some amazing synergy for any Ele shaman who doesn't have their 4 set.

For Ele. I'm not sure why you would synch EM with Asendance given as a Troll I'm already at .9 sec LvB during ascendance. Also at this point I have no intentions on picking up the 4 set till it's changed. It's a waste for a raid to put on their Elemental being that at best it's a very slight gain and at worse it's a dps loss.

[Arctorus]

For Ele. I'm not sure why you would synch EM with Asendance given as a Troll I'm already at .9 sec LvB during ascendance.

Reforge into mastery, problem solved.

[shell]

So once people get there 4 set and the meta, we'll be valuing mastery more. And I guess crit? Part of me is not too excited about the crit because if its importance is bumped this way then they might not consider crit scaling for LvB. I guess that seems counter-intuitive but we're going to be valuing it because its coming from an 'artificial' source. I could see in 5.3, us: "Hey GC, so how about LvB scaling with crit?".....GC:"why, elemental scales well with crit already, we see a lot reforging to it."

[Intrepid1]

I'm looking for facts and numbers if there are any. With all due respect Arctorus everything you've said is supposition with no math to back it. Echo is a strong talent and shouldn't be discarded so lightly.

[Arctorus]

So once people get there 4 set and the meta, we'll be valuing mastery more. And I guess crit? Part of me is not too excited about the crit because if its importance is bumped this way then they might not consider crit scaling for LvB. I guess that seems counter-intuitive but we're going to be valuing it because its coming from an 'artificial' source. I could see in 5.3, us: "Hey GC, so how about LvB scaling with crit?".....GC:"why, elemental scales well with crit already, we see a lot reforging to it."

If the EPV of crit is high it's because the overall benefit is high, regardless if it scales well with 1 of our abilities; even if it's one of our main spells. Beneficial stat is beneficial.

---------- Post added 2013-03-05 at 06:35 PM ----------

I'm looking for facts and numbers if there are any. With all due respect Arctorus everything you've said is supposition with no math to back it. Echo is a strong talent and shouldn't be discarded so lightly.

Granted, I'm not a napkin math wizard, but I never argued that my hunch was absolute fact. I simply stated that there will be some very interesting synergy with EM and Asc, as well as glyphed Fire Ele/Primal Ele. 5.2 isn't even officially live, when the sims get updated they won't be hidden from view.

[Intrepid1]

So once people get there 4 set and the meta, we'll be valuing mastery more. And I guess crit? Part of me is not too excited about the crit because if its importance is bumped this way then they might not consider crit scaling for LvB. I guess that seems counter-intuitive but we're going to be valuing it because its coming from an 'artificial' source. I could see in 5.3, us: "Hey GC, so how about LvB scaling with crit?".....GC:"why, elemental scales well with crit already, we see a lot reforging to it."

I'm not sold on the 4pc even being worthwhile to pick up. I didn't get T14s 4pc till our heroic Sha kill and now I personally feel it was a waste except on very few fights.

[Sarevokcz]

If the EPV of crit is high it's because the overall benefit is high, regardless if it scales well with 1 of our abilities; even if it's one of our main spells. Beneficial stat is beneficial.

"high" is relative term. just because it might be higher than haste for us doesnt mean its high compared to other classes stat weights.
also, crit is the one stat that doesnt boost our main burst CD at all at any point in the game, regardless of gear.

[Arctorus]

I'm not sold on the 4pc even being worthwhile to pick up. I didn't get T14s 4pc till our heroic Sha kill and now I personally feel it was a waste except on very few fights.

Quid pro quo Clarice, where's your evidence? The sims I ran showed the 4set being a dps increase even with 496 tier versus 502/509 heroic non-tier.

---------- Post added 2013-03-05 at 06:39 PM ----------

"high" is relative term. just because it might be higher than haste for us doesnt mean its high compared to other classes stat weights.
also, crit is the one stat that doesnt boost our main burst CD at all at any point in the game, regardless of gear.

Why does the scaling of other classes with a stat have anything to do with us? If it becomes good for us, it becomes good. If not, it's not. Just because boomkins and fire mages love the shit out of crit doesn't mean I want anything to do with it as things stand.

[shell]

If the EPV of crit is high it's because the overall benefit is high, regardless if it scales well with 1 of our abilities; even if it's one of our main spells. Beneficial stat is beneficial.

I realize that, which is why I acknowledged my thinking is counter-intuitive, but I really really want that LvB crit scaling. It's just that I'll be annoyed if they decide against it because crit is better for us now. I'm keeping in mind that's there's more than one way to buff our damage if we need it, but I'm stuck on LvB because I really like the idea of crit rating increasing its damage; plus it's the one single-target spell we have that enhancement doesn't.

[Arctorus]

I realize that, which is why I acknowledged my thinking is counter-intuitive, but I really really want that LvB crit scaling. It's just that I'll be annoyed if they decide against it because crit is better for us now. I'm keeping in mind that's there's more than one way to buff our damage if we need it, but I'm stuck on LvB because I really the idea of crit rating increasing its damage; plus it's the one single-target spell we have that enhancement doesn't.

Honestly, I prefer shamans without crit. Our dps is already incredibly variable enough without adding crit into the equation. The design of our mastery is high chance based, I don't think another variable stat is the solution. In my perfect world haste would remain king because it's the most stable, until you reach situations such as ours with the GCD.

[Sarevokcz]

Why does the scaling of other classes with a stat have anything to do with us? If it becomes good for us, it becomes good. If not, it's not. Just because boomkins and fire mages love the shit out of crit doesn't mean I want anything to do with it as things stand.

Because crit becomes "good" only thanks to haste being bad, whle most other specs get both crit and haste better.

[Arctorus]

Because crit becomes "good" only thanks to haste being bad, whle most other specs get both crit and haste better.

In regards to the current situation, I think people are talking about crit becoming good because yes, haste starts to become bad and Fire Ele damage, I believe, scales with crit.

[Intrepid1]

4 set T14 is a slight dps increase depending on the fight. Any fight where you AoE with CL you build charges way faster than you can use them and if you want to keep FS up on the kill target you tie up your shock cooldown and waste even more shield charges. Among all the other classes on the protector token I would hazard to say Elemental gets the least benefit from the token. It does sim as a dps increase but in actuality outside of a few fights you won't notice it.

4 set T15 as stated in numerous threads is no longer synched with skull banner. It also will no longer line up with things like Engi gloves which makes ascendance even more potent. Also it's a random set bonus depending on how many lava burst you get off. On a fight where you spam CL like Wind Lord you wouldn't gain enough for an extra ascendance which would make it dps neutral or a dps loss if off set pieces are better.