5.2 Shaman changes

[zenga]

@ Zenga: Elemental might be a decent dps contributor, but when a Raidleader has the choice between equally skilled Elementals or Afflilocks/Boomkins, Ele almost always draws the short stick.

That is absolutely true. However, provided you have all the buffs needed, then you can replace pretty much every other class with locks. However that's not how it works in most guilds, since you usually simply don't have 15 of one class (remember how even the top 10 guilds struggled to find enough arcane mages and rogues for spine hc pre nerf). Throughout tiers you need a variety of classes and specs, and that is exactly my point: there are plenty of top 50 guilds who had an ele shaman in most of their progress kills. Yes ele is weak(er), but it's not like a well played ele can never get a raid spot. There are reasons enough why one would chose for an ele over stacking something else, not in the least the off healing, a self ress, purge glyph, cleave, burst .... And if that ele is capable he will pull his weight.

Afflilocks aren't just the best at multidotting and (almost? best) single target dps, they are also great at short time aoe, especially when the targets are not close together like Elegon or Unsok (Mannoroths Fury...)
No one really complains about Boomkins, maybe because it is probably the hardest ranged specc to play well. We have 16/16 heroic (10m), so our first kill of Blade Lord Tayak was quite a while ago; but I still remember both healers dying at 22% - the Boomkin just healed the rest of the fight with some support from me and the shadow. I maybe healed 3 million, shadow not so much - Boomkin healed 12 million during the last 20%...btw: Boomkin offhealing (Nature's Virgil) gets a big buff with 5.2...
Boomkin burst is the highest ingame - want some logs?

I see that every week myself. Boomkins are under the radar, but capable players do sick dmg and healing as boomkin. If would chose any class to stack for my progress raid it would be boomkins (symbiosis is godly, tranq, innervate, combat rez, sick burst, sick dots, sick aoe).

Another idea: Give LvB the same FS spread that LL has, maybe just on two other targets.

That'd be a very welcome change.

[Slappyjoe]

Nobody's arguing that, though. Yes, there are some fights where more dps is the only thing standing between success and failure, but they're by no means in the majority. Bottom line is that while Elemental's damage output isn't fantastic at the moment, they're by no means bad and the difference between them and the top performers doesn't matter at all for most of the playerbase. I like sites like Raidbots just to get an overall snapshot of where classes/specs stand, but I seriously hate that it's so often used to proclaim very loudly and confidently to the WoW community which classes suck simply because they're not at the top of the charts. This ends up leading to a drop off in the number of people playing the alleged sucky specs, which leads to a lull in the number of parses, which makes the problem even worse.

I do want to make it clear, however, that if you're in the type of raiding guild where a couple % difference in dps matters, then by all means bench the Elemental for an Affliction Lock. It's completely fine if that's how you run your guild and my argument is not against people doing that. My issue is when that philosophy spills over into the rest of the game and even casual guilds start yammering about which classes suck, simply because the top guilds choose not to run with those classes.

[Orasay1996]

Havent been able to read the whole thread, comments etc etc.
But was reallly suprised when i saw the 20% buff to primal elementalist, personaly i'm in love with this talent cuase ever since wrath ive wanted some kinda control over my totems.... So i read some guide on icy veins and saw it was a bit on par with elemental blast atleast better the unleashed talent, so dident really care about the dps lose when i was not raiding, was kinda forced to spec into elemental blast when raiding though... So basicly my question is will primal elementalist be a bit more in par with elemental blast or is there even a posibility to see it do better then elemental blast?

[Deleted]

Well 10% buff would be a little much. I would be happier if they broought affli closer to the middle (arcane is getting a nerf), buff eles dps by 2-3 % and on top of that, implement multidotting mechanics for elemental.

The easiest and dumpest way would be to double FS damage for Elemental only (via Shamanism). That would pretty much enable multidotting and be the dps buff needed.

But that's possible too much, so i would perhaps nerf something else to compensate (e.g. they could finally make LvB a 2 sec cast, buff the damage, but not by 33%, but by 25%).

If something like that happened, i believe Elemental shamans could be desirable again.

[Kralljin]

But that's possible too much, so i would perhaps nerf something else to compensate (e.g. they could finally make LvB a 2 sec cast, buff the damage, but not by 33%, but by 25%).

As much as i would love to see that Lvb becomes a slower cast, it won't happen in the middle of a expansion.

Also, if they increase the casttime to 2sec, they had to increase the damage by at least 33%, else it would be a dps loss outside of BL / EM / Haste Proc.

Lvb is a decently hard hitting spell, if they increase it's damage by a decent chunk, your sole strat in PvP would to be multi dot FS on everything and constantly throw Instant Lvb's into the face of the enemy, since it's an instant cast and deals serious damage you would have issues to lock it down.

[Teriz]

Any chance Blizzard would take the 4 shocks off of shared CD finally? I think its time.

Oh, and that new FS glyph is awful. It deserves to be a minor glyph.

Conductivity turning HR into an instant cast is a good idea IMO.

[takolin]

Havent been able to read the whole thread, comments etc etc.
But was reallly suprised when i saw the 20% buff to primal elementalist, personaly i'm in love with this talent cuase ever since wrath ive wanted some kinda control over my totems.... So i read some guide on icy veins and saw it was a bit on par with elemental blast atleast better the unleashed talent, so dident really care about the dps lose when i was not raiding, was kinda forced to spec into elemental blast when raiding though... So basicly my question is will primal elementalist be a bit more in par with elemental blast or is there even a posibility to see it do better then elemental blast?

It'll depend on the fight length. The more of a fight you can cover with your elemental (with or without a glyph), the better the talent becomes.

[Northy]

Oh, and that new FS glyph is awful. It deserves to be a minor glyph.

Ya, Blizz is clearly trying but fails to make any true progress. Thanks for Shamanistic Rage, but there's much more that needs to be done.

[Deleted]

Bah, playing my Elemental Shaman is making me depressed. I've even added Raidbots to my blacklist because I don't even want to see how we compare to other classes (which will be poor at best). I try my hardest, evaluate my every performance through comparisons with people who are outplaying me, adjusting when and where necessary, and I'm still fighting with our Rogue, Warlock and Mage for the top spot, all 3 of which are underperforming. I've seen my lead dwindle over time as gear levels increased and as they got to know their class better. I'm happy for them, it helps our raid group, but I'm unhappy for myself. I've played a Mage since Vanilla, with this Shaman as a Resto alt most of the way, and I'm simply not used to being, theoretically, one of the worst DPS specs in the game with apparent utter and complete apathy from the community.

These 5.2 changes aren't giving me mental viagra like it does with most of you lads. I just don't see anything to make us able to compete. It's good that they are bringing unused talents in line with the 'default choices', but that won't change anything to our current state. I like the EM buff, but apart from not believing in seeing that one go live in its current state, it also seems like a rather lackluster buff. Still, a buff is a buff I guess...
Ghostcrawler claiming we haven't had fights tuned for Elemental in this tier? That's just pathetic. 16 Bosses, we've had everything from single target spank, single target movement, cleave, mass AoE, fights that are about add control, fights that are about controlled burst etc.
What would be an Elemental Fight? 5 Bosses stacked together sharing a single health pool with short movement phases on our SG cooldown? The sad part is, I don't see how several other specializations wouldn't beat us on that kind of fight too.

Any of you claiming it's not about DPS, but about killing bosses: I disagree. It is about (constructive) DPS. I don't need to be the undisputed best (which isn't bad though), but I'd like to be able to compete with everyone else on an even footing. It angers me to no end, knowing that in the hypothetical situation of equal skill and gear (even though it's unrealistic), I will not be able to compete with a plethora of other players playing something different than Elemental.

I think these sentiments are the source of my leveling numerous alts now. Maybe I should get back to Resto and see if I can rediscover the enjoyment from playing my Shaman.

I like sites like Raidbots just to get an overall snapshot of where classes/specs stand, but I seriously hate that it's so often used to proclaim very loudly and confidently to the WoW community which classes suck simply because they're not at the top of the charts. This ends up leading to a drop off in the number of people playing the alleged sucky specs, which leads to a lull in the number of parses, which makes the problem even worse.

Disliking Raidbots is like disliking any statistic because it doesn't tell you what you want to hear. Raidbots is an unbiased statistical analysis of actual player performance. The only negatives to it are people using faulty metrics to make invalid conclusions, and the sampling bias of people not logging their performance.
In the number-oriented community WoW has, it's also safe to assume that specs which have unreliable Raidbot results due to a decrease in parses are effectively specs that are performing less than the within-class alternatives. I have a hard time believing that thousands of people will play a DPS spec X because some vocal community members claimed spec Y is bad.

[Slappyjoe]

I have a hard time believing that thousands of people will play a DPS spec X because some vocal community members claimed spec Y is bad.

Really? Because that's exactly what happens. I'm not saying everyone does it, but a not insignificant number of people tend to say a spec sucks simply because it's not a top performer according to parses or because one of the top guilds didn't bring it to their World First kill. Remember the drama surrounding Resto Shaman back in Cata when Paragon didn't bring any to their H Rag kill? The entire community was flooded with people talking about how awful Resto was. And that's not to say that there weren't issues, just like I'm not saying there aren't currently issues with Elemental. But there are many shades between "the best" and "IT SUCKS".

[Deleted]

Really? Because that's exactly what happens. I'm not saying everyone does it, but a not insignificant number of people tend to say a spec sucks simply because it's not a top performer according to parses or because one of the top guilds didn't bring it to their World First kill. Remember the drama surrounding Resto Shaman back in Cata when Paragon didn't bring any to their H Rag kill? The entire community was flooded with people talking about how awful Resto was. And that's not to say that there weren't issues, just like I'm not saying there aren't currently issues with Elemental. But there are many shades between "the best" and "IT SUCKS".

But people did not massively drop their Resto Shaman and went for Druids instead. You are confusing an attitude with actual behavior, and while the 2 are correlated they are not causally related. I firmly believe the majority of the community today is far more reliant on Noxxic/Icy Veins/Elitist Jerks/Guides/Simcraft to form an opinion on spec performance if they are not willing to test it for themselves. Wide swings in DPS spec usage due to forum outcry, but not backed by any form or shape of analysis, is not something I expect we'll be seeing today due to the abundance of statistical tools that people rely on.
It used to be like that, especially in Vanilla. But those days are gone, in my opinion.

[mjolnrik]

Oh, and that new FS glyph is awful. It deserves to be a minor glyph.

Its not brilliant but i think it might be quite useful for soloing, its like what, a 20k heal or sumthing every few seconds, its better than not having it at all especially now u dont need the glyph to increase fs duration anymore. But i rlly think blizz shud add some more shaman glyphs. Theres very few choices atm

[Deleted]

Its not brilliant but i think it might be quite useful for soloing, its like what, a 20k heal or sumthing every few seconds, its better than not having it at all especially now u dont need the glyph to increase fs duration anymore. But i rlly think blizz shud add some more shaman glyphs. Theres very few choices atm

What, 20k? With level 95 and ilvl 700?

For me, it's a more like 2k-3k.

---------- Post added 2013-01-06 at 12:40 AM ----------

Really? Because that's exactly what happens. I'm not saying everyone does it, but a not insignificant number of people tend to say a spec sucks simply because it's not a top performer according to parses or because one of the top guilds didn't bring it to their World First kill. Remember the drama surrounding Resto Shaman back in Cata when Paragon didn't bring any to their H Rag kill? The entire community was flooded with people talking about how awful Resto was. And that's not to say that there weren't issues, just like I'm not saying there aren't currently issues with Elemental. But there are many shades between "the best" and "IT SUCKS".

I looked through the parses of the best germqan 25m guild and elemental just clearly underperforms in low-end, middle-end and even more highend fights. The Affli lock was mostly pulling 15-30% ahead of the elemental shaman ( but to be honest, not only him, nearly the whole raid got beaten by 10-30 %).

It should be about the player, not the class. A shaman performing again and again top 30 on heroic modes shouldn't be constantly 15-30% behind another ranged class.

And that is class design. If a warlock pulls 120k on first boss heroic HOF, 105k on the second boss - those are values, every elemental shaman doesn't even come close!

[Kralljin]

Its not brilliant but i think it might be quite useful for soloing, its like what, a 20k heal or sumthing every few seconds

20k heal every few seconds?

It be a dream if FS itself would tick for such an amount.

But i rlly think blizz shud add some more shaman glyphs. Theres very few choices atm

It's not the number, but rather the fact that Shaman (specially Elemental) has more glyphs which directly influence your playstyle.

[Devious009]

What, 20k? With level 95 and ilvl 700?

For me, it's a more like 2k-3k.

---------- Post added 2013-01-06 at 12:40 AM ----------



I looked through the parses of the best germqan 25m guild and elemental just clearly underperforms in low-end, middle-end and even more highend fights. The Affli lock was mostly pulling 15-30% ahead of the elemental shaman ( but to be honest, not only him, nearly the whole raid got beaten by 10-30 %).

It should be about the player, not the class. A shaman performing again and again top 30 on heroic modes shouldn't be constantly 15-30% behind another ranged class.

And that is class design. If a warlock pulls 120k on first boss heroic HOF, 105k on the second boss - those are values, every elemental shaman doesn't even come close!

What the comparison between ele shamans and every other caster then, because from what I read lately everyone is complaining about affliction locks even locks who play other specs hence the nerf in 5.2 .... I'm confident blizzard is not done with affliction yet and more 'fixes' are coming, elemental will probably get some more buffs I just hope they are the 'right' ones

[Deleted]

What the comparison between ele shamans and every other caster then, because from what I read lately everyone is complaining about affliction locks even locks who play other specs hence the nerf in 5.2 .... I'm confident blizzard is not done with affliction yet and more 'fixes' are coming, elemental will probably get some more buffs I just hope they are the 'right' ones

There's no real affli nerf so far. The only nerf is about 2.5% - that's close to notking for a class, that is 10-18% ahead of all casters except arcan mages. And BM Hunters are at the same level single target wise ( but they some disadvantages at least, no mutidotting, but 100% mobility).

A 7-8% dps buff would at least compensate for elemental to close the gap to shadows and balance druids. I don't know if shadows and balance expect any buff to come.

The arcane nerf is really difficult to estimate.

[mjolnrik]

What, 20k? With level 95 and ilvl 700?

For me, it's a more like 2k-3k.

---------- Post added 2013-01-06 at 12:40 AM ----------

Sorry I miss typed, I meant 10k, which seeing as the average hit i did in a night as resto was 8k ofc including crits, I figured 10k wud be pretty average for elemental. I also forgot the glyph did only 50% healing so yea I guess it is pretty rubbish

[Teriz]

Its not brilliant but i think it might be quite useful for soloing, its like what, a 20k heal or sumthing every few seconds, its better than not having it at all especially now u dont need the glyph to increase fs duration anymore. But i rlly think blizz shud add some more shaman glyphs. Theres very few choices atm

I think most Shaman can agree that our glyphs are pretty lackluster in general. ESPECIALLY the minor glyphs. Monks get a minor glyph that allows them to fly around on a magic cloud. We get a glyph that allows us to run on water in Wolf form. Wheeee!

In terms of the major glyphs, yeah, there isn't much there to get excited about. However, I am glad they changed FS. Its probably one of the best DoTs in the game, and it frees up a spot for another major glyph.

I do wish the Unleashed Lightning was baseline though. I feel as though I have to take it as an elemental shaman.

[Didrah]

The main problem im having is that we dont have sustained dmg outside ascendance. Our single target spells dont hit as hard as the other casters spells (AM) and we dont have dots to faceroll. Lets face it... Unleashed lightning should be baseline without the 5%+ cast time, the dmg of LB should be buffed quite hardly, the shared cd shocks must go and finally get rid of searing totem which is shitty beyond imaginable its old its bad and its a global CD wasted.. put that dmg elsewhere.

[Deleted]

Remove Searing Totem, make Lava Surge do X damage + Y damage over time with X being current Lava Surge damage and Y the Searing totem damage.