5.2 Shaman changes

[Sarevokcz]

No, they don't. Raidbots currently has Enhancement as pretty average, and while Elemental is below the average, it's by no means at the bottom, either. Exaggeration and hyperbole don't help anything.

well of course ele isnt last, there are still BM hunters below us, monks (just got bugfixed chi wave) and firemages (just got buffed mage bombs)

on per boss basis, ele is about average on half the fights, while being one of the bottom specs on the other half, in 10mans, its even worse (7 out of 12 bosses bottom 3 spec). I really dont see the point of suggarcoating it. so far, ele sucked this tier and I just dont see going into heroics much chances of improvement.

[Tiberria]

At least Ele isn't Resto - Resto is an average of 34% behind on 25 man fights and an average of 38% behind on 10 man fights.

[Gendori]

Ele is fine right now, IMO. Very good Utility while doing solid (but not spectacular DPS)

[Kralljin]

though some may not be happy with Single Target Dps currently, Durumu Hc will be your moment to shine.

[Sarevokcz]

though some may not be happy with Single Target Dps currently, Durumu Hc will be your moment to shine.

Yea, I heard that about Tortos, too.

[Kralljin]

Yea, I heard that about Tortos, too.

Tortos is good as well but Durumu beats that beyond anything.

[Sarevokcz]

Tortos is good as well but Durumu beats that beyond anything.

I take it you didnt actually check, how "well" we do on Tortos, right?

[Endus]

well of course ele isnt last, there are still BM hunters below us, monks (just got bugfixed chi wave) and firemages (just got buffed mage bombs)

on per boss basis, ele is about average on half the fights, while being one of the bottom specs on the other half, in 10mans, its even worse (7 out of 12 bosses bottom 3 spec). I really dont see the point of suggarcoating it. so far, ele sucked this tier and I just dont see going into heroics much chances of improvement.

The point is, there's a world of difference between "below average and needing a bit more of a buff than they received" and "totally at the bottom of DPS". The latter simply isn't true, and exaggerating the truth doesn't help.

[Kralljin]

I take it you didnt actually check, how "well" we do on Tortos, right?

I performed pretty well, so i don't really care if other people suck there.

[zenga]

I performed pretty well, so i don't really care if other people suck there.

I assume you are talking about your heroic kill? Can you share how well you performed relative to the other dps in the raid?

[Kralljin]

I assume you are talking about your heroic kill? Can you share how well you performed relative to the other dps in the raid?

It was like 10k, not that much but it's very much compared to a more Patchwerk situation.

Normal Mode Tortos may not be the best to judge this Encounter, those Bats just die so fast on Normal, on Heroic you can just 1-2 people handle those Bats while the rest continues Boss or mini turtle Dps.

[Cai]

So with Enh going haste, what is the Ideal haste to stop at when reforging?

[Grym]

Actually on HC when it comes to Bats my dps went from 5th to 1st XD

But we haven't killed it yet so on a kill try the number may be different, but judging by first wave of bats are, more bats wave it is the more my dps will fly >.>;

OK I do poorly on most other fights tho lol.

[Schadow]

Resto shaman needs a few serious buffs to be competetive in 10 man. I understand shammy works just fine in 25mans due to Healing Rain and Chain Heal spam, but that just isn't possible in 10 man.

He? No, just no! Even in 25 man, we are at the bottom of the pit. The spread fights in 10 man are on the same level as 25-man, they are spread, you barely can use healing rain or chain heal, not even at the melee, as they also spread and move. Compare with that most groups have 2 priests, they can blanket the whole raid regardless. Well, say goodbye to your HPS that way.

[stomination]

He? No, just no! Even in 25 man, we are at the bottom of the pit. The spread fights in 10 man are on the same level as 25-man, they are spread, you barely can use healing rain or chain heal, not even at the melee, as they also spread and move. Compare with that most groups have 2 priests, they can blanket the whole raid regardless. Well, say goodbye to your HPS that way.

1. Do whatever you can to keep your raid alive.
2. You heal as a team.
3. Be vocal.
4. Understand what is going on with each encounter.
5. Healers carry raids, so play like it.
6. Be efficient with mana and activity.
7. I don’t care about your hps, don’t let your raiders die.

[Schadow]

7. I don’t care about your hps, don’t let your raiders die.

You maybe don't care, no, but if you are wiping, what do leaders do? Yes, they will look for flaws. And when they see that there are a few people doing way lower healing then others, what do they do? that's right, they get benched.

Before I say that it's useless, let's continue with it, shall we? I'm in that mood, cuz I just woke up, and then I'm a douchebag. Tanks die, even through their cooldowns. Whose fault, healers fault. Which healers fault, it doesn't matter, the whole team. Now that is a matter where hps doesn't matter. Heavy AoE incoming, cooldown rotation is being executed, yet still people die. Whose fault, healers fault. Which healer, the one that did the lowest HPS in that part.

Oh shit, yeah, that's right, if you do low healing during heavy AoE damage, you do get shit raped, no matter the amount of cooldowns.

[Tiberria]

1. Do whatever you can to keep your raid alive.
2. You heal as a team.
3. Be vocal.
4. Understand what is going on with each encounter.
5. Healers carry raids, so play like it.
6. Be efficient with mana and activity.
7. I don’t care about your hps, don’t let your raiders die.

Here is the problem with that theory.
(1) There are fights where healing output is one of the limiting factors in your ability to actually kill the fight. It may not be the limiting factor for a guild like Exodus on the same fight as a lesser progressed guild, but it absolutely does come into play. If you run into a fight where you are dying to not having enough healing, a healing spec that is 35% behind in throughput is a liability. Sure, Shaman have utility, but if you run into that situation, you have to make a serious decision on whether that utility is worth garbage throughput. In a lot of cases, the conclusion will probably be made that you can get most of what Mana Tide brings by making sure shadow priests use Hymn, etc. If you have a higher throughput healer available, guess what, drop the Shaman.
(2) There are likely to be fights on heroic where you need to drop to like 4 healers on 25 man and 2 healers on 10 man. You may be able to get by 4 healing a fight, but can you 4 heal it with a healer that is only capable of doing 65% of the output of the other healers? Probably not. You need to again decide between probably needing to 5 heal a fight to get that Shaman utility or drop the Shaman, make some adjustments and 4 heal. Again, Shaman gets screwed in that situation. This is exactly what happened on Heroic Rag.

On top of that, Resto Shaman are being excluded from a lot of world first/top kills already.
-Blood Legion - Resto Shaman have been exluded from 2 of their 9 kills so far (Tortos and Dark Animus). Disc Priests, Holy Paladins, and Mistweavers have been present in every kill
-Exodus - Resto Shaman excluded from 2 of 8 kills (Tortos and Ji-Kun). The entire Shaman class was excluded from Ji-Kun. Holy Paladins and Mistweavers in for every kill
-Method - The entire shaman class was excluded from the world first Dark Animus kill. No Resto Shaman in for Tortos. Mistweavers, Priest healers and Holy Paladins present on every kill

We already are seeing a viability problem, with Resto Shaman being left out of multiple kills, while other healing specs apparently have no weaknesses this tier and are being taken every time.

[stomination]

I am still going to disagree with you both.

Both of you have something in common and it sounds likes its the ME ME ME ME ME ME mentality when you go into raids. You sit there looking at that Hps meter during fights or right after the fight it sounds like.

Schadow you just have shitty raid leaders. That or ppl who like to stand in fire or other things. Even more likely is cooldowns are not being used properly but im only guessing from your ranting on that.

Tibbee congrats on the Heroic Horridon kill btw. Hoping my guild gets it done tonight but most likely I will not be a part of it while the other resto shaman is.

First off there are very few boss fights were a lack of healing is going to be the problem. Most of the time its a lack of doing mechanics correctly or improvement on the strategy is needed. So far Tsulong has been the only real healing boss while the others have been "dont do dumbshit and use cds properly" I am sure you know this with being a heroic progression guild.
You also brought up a Mana hymn vs Mana tide debate.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-wq...?s=7155&e=7938

I see that a Warlock got more mana from that Mana Hymn than you did.


Point 2 is a choice thing. You can try to do exactly what the other top guilds are doing but that is your choice to be a sheep. Its not always the correct way to do the fight for your guild but the correct way for theirs. As for not having a spot on some of those fights, well im fine with that. It should be guild progression over your own character progression always. Just get over it and realize you will get a spot for it some other time. You can also see where they do things differently between blood legions 2 resto shamans on Ji'kun and 0 from Exodus.

Also i remember Heroic Rag. But I also remember how the Sunwell was.

Btw that mistweaver you beat on horridon what was up with that?

[Tiberria]

Our Mistweaver was away last week, so we had one of our holy paladins play his Mistweaver alt that is like ilvl 485 or something terrible just because Revival is so overpowered for handling getting rid of the poison. I also don't think it's a good fight to look at Mana Hymn. It is nearly impossible to burn mana on that fight until the curses need to be dispelled and until P2, because there is so much movement and so little relative healing to be done.

I don't think Tsulong is a good example of a "healing fight". Tsulong is a gimmick fight with infinite mana mechanics that heavily favors certain healing mechanics over others. If you want an example of what I consider healing fights last tier - I would point to Shek'zeer and Heroic Elite Protectors (even non-elite Heroic Protectors in P2). Both of these have very high healing output requirements to be able to heal through large amounts of unavoidable damage. Heroic Will of the Emperor (before being massively overgeared for it) was another one; large amounts of tank healing and large amounts of ticking raid damage in a fight where mana was tight and you could normally only afford 5 healers during progression.

I don't think that it's selfish or unreasonable to expect the contribution that you or anyone else brings to the raid to be quantifiable and balanced with the contribution that other classes and specs bring. I am not OK with a Disc Priest bringing roughly the same utility, plus 130% of the healing plus an additional 25% of the damage of a primary DPS. If you are going to argue that utility brings with it an output tax, that has to be quantified, and there has to be limits on how much of a penalty that should carry. No amount of utility is going to justify a 35% performance difference - this isn't Vanilla anymore.

[Endus]

I don't think that it's selfish or unreasonable to expect the contribution that you or anyone else brings to the raid to be quantifiable and balanced with the contribution that other classes and specs bring. I am not OK with a Disc Priest bringing roughly the same utility, plus 130% of the healing plus an additional 25% of the damage of a primary DPS. If you are going to argue that utility brings with it an output tax, that has to be quantified, and there has to be limits on how much of a penalty that should carry. No amount of utility is going to justify a 35% performance difference - this isn't Vanilla anymore.

The big difficulty is that this model works fairly well for DPS. It really doesn't, for Healers.

DPS has a mathematically simple role; there is one target health pool (or several), and the task is to reduce that pool to zero ASAP. DPS is king, since more DPS means you reduce that pool to zero faster.

Healing isn't that mathematically simple. In healing, your job is to take 10/25 health pools and prevent them hitting zero. Not only are the number of health pools much larger, they're also comparatively tiny, meaning where you target your performance is as big a deal, if not more, than how much you perform. It isn't about tossing off that 50k heal, it's about tossing off that 50k heal on the right target, at the right time. Straight throughput is a factor, but it isn't the factor, or even the most important factor. For instance; a healer who pulsed massive AoE blanket healing every 10 seconds would be a crap healer; there's no ability to respond to targeted damage, regardless of the blanket HPS they provide. At least, they wouldn't be any good solo; one of these in a 25-man could work.

Shaman are basically the opposite of that; they're triage healers. They have a wealth of spells that target smart heals on the targets that need it most, and their Mastery boosts healing done to those critical targets. That's not a role that is as impressive, in terms of raw HPS, but if we look at healing in a real-world perspective, a clinic doctor giving out flu shots might treat a lot more patients over the course of his week, but that doesn't make him more valuable (or less) than the emergency care surgeon. They have different roles, and handle different things.

I'm not saying HPS doesn't matter; it's obviously somewhat reflective of performance. But it's not the sole determination of performance that DPS is, for damage-dealing specs. It's not "bad" for a spec to have lower HPS, if that HPS is better targeted rather than blanketed on the raid willy-nilly. Nor is it "bad" to have such blanket healing; they're supportive patterns. Nor am I even saying Resto is fine, necessarily; I'm just pointing out that you have to get deeper than the pure HPS numbers (or complaints about Healing Rain's radius, to pick another sticking point) to really get into whether Resto is competitive or not.