Rogue Buffs in 5.2

[Shaderas]

Honestly, they need to fix the mechanics of the class to make it more fun and dynamic. (This probably won't happen until next expansion) I play my Feral Druid and I see that I have abilities that have conditional modifiers already placed into them. Ferocious Bite, Ravage.. Why doesn't the Rogue have any of these? They do not need to be over the top, but it would be nice to be compensated a little for Backstab and Ambush basically being gutted. Why don't we have something on Ambush that gives us additional damage if they are over 80% health or something? I would really love to see something added to Rupture to make it a little cooler to use during PvP, since the only reason you'll ever use it as Subtlety is for Sanguinary Vein.

And I do not think all of the changes they have made will go live. I'm fairly certain that extra energy, extra damage from SV and Preparation baseline will be what we get. I'm not even certain that the extra energy will end up being +50...

[Deleted]

I was reading Ghostcrawler's twitter feed and he had a long talk about how they couldn't figure out why rogues were so under represented (The lowest played class in the game)

He did state that even when they were AMAZING in pvp no one played them and him and his team were looking into ways to boost their population. I guess this is their answer.

I don't understand why people are so baffled by this, rogue has an hell of a lot of drawbacks compared to other classes. First of all rogue is the only pure MELEE DPS class, every other melee dps can either heal or tank and often both. So playing a rogue cheats you out of those options.

Second, rogue always had to compete with ferals and as stronger those get as worse rogues look in comparison. It hurts especially if in a direct conflict the feral will beat an rogue. Why play the class who offers only dps if you can play on the offers the exact same things (often better mind you), more utility, healing and better CC who can also heal and or tank.

Third, rogue has three talent trees and they all play exactly alike or extremly similar. Might aswell get rid of two of them.

Fourth, if rogue goes through a weak phase you might aswell delete him. Other classes always have another skill set to be "viable", rogue doesn't.

Honestly, they need to fix the mechanics of the class to make it more fun and dynamic. (This probably won't happen until next expansion) I play my Feral Druid and I see that I have abilities that have conditional modifiers already placed into them. Ferocious Bite, Ravage.. Why doesn't the Rogue have any of these? They do not need to be over the top, but it would be nice to be compensated a little for Backstab and Ambush basically being gutted. Why don't we have something on Ambush that gives us additional damage if they are over 80% health or something? I would really love to see something added to Rupture to make it a little cooler to use during PvP, since the only reason you'll ever use it as Subtlety is for Sanguinary Vein.

And I do not think all of the changes they have made will go live. I'm fairly certain that extra energy, extra damage from SV and Preparation baseline will be what we get. I'm not even certain that the extra energy will end up being +50...

The funny thing is, they can fix all these things for Feral, yet they're unable to do so for rogue. Feral mechanics are in generally better, Feral outshines rogue in about everything except for smoke bomb and often ferals abilities are also more effective. I remember them lowering the duration of sprint so it could be used more often since they could lower the cool downs aswell.
Then they went back on the cool down while leaving the duration halved, feral sprint till lasted twice as long without having a twice as long cool down. And that's completly ignoring that ferals can hardly be CC'd and run way faster then a rogue does.

Hell they introduced vanish for shadow priest and IMMEDIATLY came up with an way to fix the problems rogue stealth has. Rogue get's an glyph that does something similar, just that there is no target drop and the copy isn't targetable.

[Deleted]

If you think 2-3 buffs will make rogues god mode after the crazy amount of nerfs they got in beta you're retarded. If few buffs sends rogues to god mode that would mean their in a good place now and their 2-3% rep says other wise.

I consider rogues getting a 44% MS effect after every kidney on a healer to be gamebreaking with the amounts of damage going around together with being able to sustain higher uptime on a target with prep, but that is probably only my own opinion. The nerve strike change will stack with wound poison.
Healing done by the target and amount a target can be healed for are separate things. If a target which has it's healing done reduced by 25% and is healing a target which takes 25% less healing, well should be obvious.

Lets say a target do 100 healing. ( low number for easy calculation)
first we have the reduced healing, being 25%. That bring it down to 75% healing being done.
75/4= 18,75%.
25% Is being cut off on the remaining part by wound poison.
75 - 18,75 = 56,25 This means he is doing 56% effective healing.
100 - 56,25 = 43,75. This means that rogues will have a 44% MS effect rolling after every kidney, if you have a different opinion i respect that, please refrain from using the word retard if you disagree with someone. They do not gain any direct damage buffs but they gain the ability to reduce effective healing by about 20% more.

[OMGITSDOT]

I consider rogues getting a 45% MS effect after every kidney on a healer to be gamebreaking with the amounts of damage going around together with being able to sustain higher uptime on a target with prep, but that is probably only my own opinion. The nerve strike change will stack with wound poison.
Healing done by the target and amount a target can be healed for are separate things. If a target which has it's healing done reduced by 25% and is healing a target which takes 25% less healing, well should be obvious.

Lets say a target do 100 healing. ( low number for easy calculation)
first we have the reduced healing, being 25%. That bring it down to 75% healing being done.
75/4= 18,75%.
25% Is being cut off on the remaining part by wound poison.
75 - 18,75 = 56,25 This means he is doing 56% effective healing.
100 - 56,25 = 44,75. This means that rogues will have a 45% MS effect rolling after every kidney, if you have a different opinion i respect that, please refrain from using the word retard if you disagree with someone. They do not gain any direct damage buffs but they gain the ability to reduce effective healing by about 20% more.

In the current state of the game something like this would be too much. However they have already stated that they are planning on lowering all burst and instant CC. You can't really analyze this change until the PTR is out and we can test it. If they do what they say and lower the damage and control then something like this wouldn't be that bad, and it also causes Rogues to not get Combat Readiness which is a big loss.

[Illiterate]

45% MS will never make it to live. Seeing as they will not be completely shit next patch, I did start gearing up my rogue already.

[ipoststuff]

1)Kidney a healer
2)dance with 150 energy
3)????
4)profit

[WarTV]

GC stated that it could end up being a big overbuff to rogues. rogues are doing good burst and have high control.
they needed prep as baseline and some surv against melee and that's about it.

giving the new on roids version of "unrelenting assault" is not needed at all. along with the other buffs.

[Dcruize]

I don't understand why people are so baffled by this, rogue has an hell of a lot of drawbacks compared to other classes. First of all rogue is the only pure MELEE DPS class, every other melee dps can either heal or tank and often both. So playing a rogue cheats you out of those options.

Second, rogue always had to compete with ferals and as stronger those get as worse rogues look in comparison. It hurts especially if in a direct conflict the feral will beat an rogue. Why play the class who offers only dps if you can play on the offers the exact same things (often better mind you), more utility, healing and better CC who can also heal and or tank.

Third, rogue has three talent trees and they all play exactly alike or extremly similar. Might aswell get rid of two of them.

Fourth, if rogue goes through a weak phase you might aswell delete him. Other classes always have another skill set to be "viable", rogue doesn't.

Absolutely - I think the only way they'd be able to increase the rogue population would be to turn assassination into a prot tree and let us dodge-tank. Being 'OP' in S11 didn't help numbers because a lot of the people who switched to their rogues found out pretty quickly that without BiS PVE gear they weren't actually OP at all.

I'm really looking forward to 5.2 - I've hit 90 on my second rogue now and am pretty shocked to find that despite being badly geared (2 miniature trees, 8 contenders, a malevolent ring and 2-set honor gear) there doesn't seem to be that much difference between my alt rogue and my fully geared main rogue.

[discoepfeand]

I'm really looking forward to 5.2 - I've hit 90 on my second rogue now and am pretty shocked to find that despite being badly geared (2 miniature trees, 8 contenders, a malevolent ring and 2-set honor gear) there doesn't seem to be that much difference between my alt rogue and my fully geared main rogue.

Well that doesn't sound promising. How geared is your main?

[Deleted]

1)Kidney a healer
2)dance with 150 energy
3)????
4)profit

its only that devastating if the target is totaly out of defensives and has rupture/garrote running, also we already have that, shadow focus makes a stealth move cost nothing so basicly we already sittin on 150 energy if we open from shadows to all out rape. ( shadow focus is gettin a nerf so ppl will basicly move to subterfuge instead. )

also, rogue is most likely dead be4 the opposin healer is out of defensives due to melee cleaving him to death.

[Dcruize]

Well that doesn't sound promising. How geared is your main?

ilvl480 with no pve items. I'm guessing the similarities in survivability between a well geared rogue (65% resil) and my 1day old rogue (53% resil) is down to feint already reducing incoming damage by 30% before resilience takes effect. Being hit by 150k = 37k dmg with full gear, 49k dmg with crap gear..... not much in it.

[Shaderas]

ilvl480 with no pve items. I'm guessing the similarities in survivability between a well geared rogue (65% resil) and my 1day old rogue (53% resil) is down to feint already reducing incoming damage by 30% before resilience takes effect. Being hit by 150k = 37k dmg with full gear, 49k dmg with crap gear..... not much in it.

It does make a difference. The 65% resilience often gives you a little extra time to react. Sometimes those big hits come in quick succession. And there will be times when Feint wears off and you won't be able to reapply it right away again. Anyways, good luck

[Deleted]

It does make a difference. The 65% resilience often gives you a little extra time to react. Sometimes those big hits come in quick succession. And there will be times when Feint wears off and you won't be able to reapply it right away again. Anyways, good luck

Doesn't make them healable, not that most damage with the 30% healing reduction is healable anyway with the massive burst going around. Played against Arena Master Feral, + Gladiator Feral today on 1,9k rating. Was like "Hey, that should be easy!", they dropped me from 100% to 0% in under 2 seconds despite healing tide totem being active.
My arena mate was like "Did you just instantly drop dead?" He still managed to kill one of them since his own burst as beast master is still fairly high before he died himself.

I just don't see any kind of damage reduction they're talking about. So I'm kind of worried about the 45% healing debuff rogues get, especially since it's added atop the 30% already being in effect. 100,000 healing > 70.000 healing > 38500 healing. Not just because of the rogue, but because of the other dps they're playing with. With this tunneling the healer becomes even more easy then it already is.

[Shaderas]

Doesn't make them healable, not that most damage with the 30% healing reduction is healable anyway with the massive burst going around. Played against Arena Master Feral, + Gladiator Feral today on 1,9k rating. Was like "Hey, that should be easy!", they dropped me from 100% to 0% in under 2 seconds despite healing tide totem being active.
My arena mate was like "Did you just instantly drop dead?" He still managed to kill one of them since his own burst as beast master is still fairly high before he died himself.

I just don't see any kind of damage reduction they're talking about. So I'm kind of worried about the 45% healing debuff rogues get, especially since it's added atop the 30% already being in effect. 100,000 healing > 70.000 healing > 38500 healing. Not just because of the rogue, but because of the other dps they're playing with. With this tunneling the healer becomes even more easy then it already is.

I will have to concur that Ferals seem to be pretty ridiculous at the moment (I play one at 90 in addition to my Rogue and Hunter and DK).

Which class were you playing Deleth?

[Yvaelle]

To be clear to people saying rogues aren't that bad in 5.1. Rogues (all three specs) had less representation last I checked than Windwalkers and Mistweavers had individually, and for every rogue over 2200, there were 25 times more warriors, and for every rogue over 2400 - there were infinity times more warriors - because no rogues were over 2400. The math on it was baffling no matter how many times I looked at it or heard numbers about it.

Prep baseline is a lazy fix, but its absolutely needed.

Cloak and Dagger may or may not hit live as it is - I'm honestly unsure - I could see them doing something lazy to make it acceptable like putting a 5 or 10 second internal cooldown on the teleport (so that Shadowdance isn't controlled-teleport-spree).

The nerve strike buff is out of left field to me, that talent is amazing as is - I always figured the only reason it wasnt getting nerfed was because rogues were non-existent - but here it is getting buffed while they are buffing rogues into existence.

I still suspect rogue survivability (particularly to other melee) will mean they don't suddenly become overpowered, they're so very frail this season. There is really zero risk I see of them being overbuffed by all this.

[Exorte]

To be clear to people saying rogues aren't that bad in 5.1. Rogues (all three specs) had less representation last I checked than Windwalkers and Mistweavers had individually.

Nope.
http://www.crossladder.com/arena/stats/ <- Class in general of top 250 team in each battle group.
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-0-0-0.html <- Each spec over 2200+
Both of their are up to date.
Every time I checked less Monk than rogue.
Interestingly WW + MW = 1.2% where ASS alone is 1.1% and Sub with 2.1%, completely the reverse.
There is more Sub rogue than all monk specs.

[Deleted]

theres only 2 real comps rogue can play atm and 1 of the comps can do way better by not takin a rogue, so unless ur best friends with some great mages,restoshammies or priests you aint gettin anywhere. :/

[Dcruize]

It does make a difference. The 65% resilience often gives you a little extra time to react. Sometimes those big hits come in quick succession. And there will be times when Feint wears off and you won't be able to reapply it right away again. Anyways, good luck

Yep, on my 65% resilience rogue I get a little extra time to react but the majority of the time it's purely delaying the inevitable. If I get hard switched to and don't have a trinket to get out of the stun, I'm smashed into the ground. Same thing happens on my 1day rogue :/ It's not 'oh that was close I almost survived', it's complete overkill.

[Illiterate]

Not much you can do when most of your hp is gone in a shockwave from some scrubby mongo

[kosechi]

Not much you can do when most of your hp is gone in a shockwave from some scrubby mongo

wasn't much you could do when most of your hp was gone in a cheap shot to some scrubby mongo last season either.

i'm still not convinced rogues were anywhere close to as bad as people make them out to be, and prep baseline is idiotic, i'm not a fan of cd reset abilities to begin with, they are dumb and gimmicky and you end up with classes balanced around them. it would have been more logical to give cloak and vanish 2 charges before incurring the cd or shortening the cd of both of them

rogues shouldn't have great survivability, and they shouldn't be able to tank melee the way warriors can and rets/dks should be able too. they needed a few mobility fixes but they shouldn't expect to have the same survivability as plate wearers while still maintaining all their escape mechanisms.